52 replies to this topic

[NewEra]

PDaDdy said:

1332972055[/url]' post='2424649']
Really? REALLY? So he never played football in pop warner, junior high, high school, college, NFL Europe and I also believe the arena league at one point? I don't mean to be mean but people need to stop with this and get a clue. I suppose we can just get your father to play RB for us because he doesn't have much mileage on him.

This is becoming a trend.

Fred doesn't have the same mileage on him that most rbs do at his age.  Most feature rbs at the age of 31 were feature backs their entire career.  That's not the case with Fred.  While I'm not saying he doesn't have mileage, he definitely does, I'm saying he doesn't have as much as most 31 year old backs.  Fred's style isn't based on speed.  It's based on instinct, smarts and toughness.  3 characteristics that age doesn't really hamper.  I can see Fred playing another 2 years at last years level and another 3 more years playing productive football.  Then you replace him...just like you might have to replace Cj when his contract is up.  

Like I said previously in this thread, we don't have to make a choice between the 2.  This thread is useless IMO.  But I posted in it anyway. Sigh.

[mrags]

uncle flap, on 28 March 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

Wait a sec... they can't "win now" with spiller?  

I love Fred and freely admit he is the better player TODAY. However, Spiller is really freakin good too.

So in fantasy land where I have to pick one (despite them both being under contract for at least this season), I pick CJ.

Win now AND later.

This

[benderbender]

Dopey, on 28 March 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

I'll take J-Lo over Kim Kardashian any day!!!
Ooops, sorry wrong poll!!

The overexposed least talented skank poll? I'll pass. However I would trade Fred Jackson while he's still worth something, as opposed to when he joins the Clinton Portis Willie Parker Larry Johnson club

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

I have nothing against CJ except for a #1 pick he's not lived up to the his placing

who's the better blocker?
who's the better pass catcher?


And please don't use who has the better ypc average.   those stats are often skewed.

[PDaDdy]

NewEra, on 29 March 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

This is becoming a trend.

Fred doesn't have the same mileage on him that most rbs do at his age.  Most feature rbs at the age of 31 were feature backs their entire career.  That's not the case with Fred.  While I'm not saying he doesn't have mileage, he definitely does, I'm saying he doesn't have as much as most 31 year old backs.  Fred's style isn't based on speed.  It's based on instinct, smarts and toughness.  3 characteristics that age doesn't really hamper.  I can see Fred playing another 2 years at last years level and another 3 more years playing productive football.  Then you replace him...just like you might have to replace Cj when his contract is up.  

Like I said previously in this thread, we don't have to make a choice between the 2.  This thread is useless IMO.  But I posted in it anyway. Sigh.

I beg to differ. Speed is one of the first things that you lose with age and it has nothing to do with how many hits you take. FJ is still fast enough no doubt.  He makes some tough yards and takes and delivers a good number of hits. We will disagree on the mileage because he has a lot of miles. He has played football his entire life. Just because it wasn't in the NFL and because he wasn't always the starter doesn't mean that the "mileage" is low.

The reality is that RB's bodies and human beings for that matter start to break down in most cases in a players later 20's. FJ is a tough runner so it't not like he is avoiding hits and going down to prevent contact. Some RBs are lucky enough to be productive into their early thirties but this is not the norm. FJ seems to be one of these players. Two years left of this level of performance? Perhaps. I hope so for our team's sake but having him take the lion's share of the carries with a really good YOUNG RB on the bench is a waste.

This is a two RB league and the good teams have and use more than one. There are very few traditional 1 RB teams left in the NFL and those RBs are usually WELL south of 31. There are problems caused purely by age whether a man plays football or not. If you really are a fan of FJ as I am we need CJ to get a lot of carries to keep him healthy and fresh and not run him into the ground.

If you are making a GM decision it's literally a no brainer. You keep the 24 year old RB and you deal the 31 year old RB. These is no discussion about that.

[rstencel]

I'd keep Fred if had to choose.  Yes Spiller has shown potential, but Fred has shown MVP caliber play potential.  If Fred has 3 years left leaves plenty of time to replace the potential for future lose with Spiller.  Fred is much better in passing game protection, runs better routes, is better runner, and its not like it that hard to get a RB with potential in NFL anymore.

[NickelCity]

PDaDdy, on 30 March 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

I beg to differ. Speed is one of the first things that you lose with age and it has nothing to do with how many hits you take. FJ is still fast enough no doubt.

I believe he was saying that Fred's game is not based on speed.

Quote

If you really are a fan of FJ as I am we need CJ to get a lot of carries to keep him healthy and fresh and not run him into the ground.

If you are making a GM decision it's literally a no brainer. You keep the 24 year old RB and you deal the 31 year old RB. These is no discussion about that.

Thank god we don't have to make this decision. CJ will be healthy and fresh when his number is called. Fred is just vastly superior right now, if he can return to his early season form.

Edited by NickelCity, 30 March 2012 - 10:51 AM.

[PDaDdy]

NickelCity, on 30 March 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

I believe he was saying that Fred's game is not based on speed.



Thank god we don't have to make this decision. CJ will be healthy and fresh when his number is called. Fred is just vastly superior right now, if he can return to his early season form.

The entire game is based on speed. You have to be fast enough at your position to be effective. FJ is fast enough but we get slower with every passing day. His game IS built on being a smart veteran do it all RB who also runs very physically. That is not usually a recipe for longevity. Not saying he is just a bruiser because he has plenty of moves and sets up his o-line well...but Fred brings plenty of thump to get those yards when he needs it.

I really just find it amazing that people are so willing to discount Spiller's performance when the team had no other choice with it's best lineman our center going down and wild cat QBs and guys off the street playing WR. I am befuddled that people could even suggest getting rid of a 24 year old for a 31 year old.

I understand people's heart are with Fred but as a GM that is a dumb, Dumb, DUMB decision! Thinking FJ is going to produce like last year ever again is likely a fantasy. RB rarely repeat that kind of performance and doing so over the age of 30 would likely be unprecedented. Him doing it for 2, 3 or more years at 32, 33, 34+? Wake the hell up!

He would be the biggest freak of nature ever to play the RB position in the history of the NFL.

[rstencel]

PDaDdy, on 30 March 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

The entire game is based on speed. You have to be fast enough at your position to be effective. FJ is fast enough but we get slower with every passing day. His game IS built on being a smart veteran do it all RB who also runs very physically. That is not usually a recipe for longevity. Not saying he is just a bruiser because he has plenty of moves and sets up his o-line well...but Fred brings plenty of thump to get those yards when he needs it.

I really just find it amazing that people are so willing to discount Spiller's performance when the team had no other choice with it's best lineman our center going down and wild cat QBs and guys off the street playing WR. I am befuddled that people could even suggest getting rid of a 24 year old for a 31 year old.

I understand people's heart are with Fred but as a GM that is a dumb, Dumb, DUMB decision! Thinking FJ is going to produce like last year ever again is likely a fantasy. RB rarely repeat that kind of performance and doing so over the age of 30 would likely be unprecedented. Him doing it for 2, 3 or more years at 32, 33, 34+? Wake the hell up!

He would be the biggest freak of nature ever to play the RB position in the history of the NFL.

Not discounting CJ, accounting for the MVP like performance of Freddy.  Dont Dump MVP for descent IMO.  Fell freddy is in top group of backs in whole league.  CJ dont fell is starter on 2/3's of teams in league.  Plus he got our QB killed with his awefull pass blocking, hence him getting pulled on 3rd downs most of the year.

Edited by rstencel, 30 March 2012 - 11:29 AM.

[over 20 years of fanhood]

Intrinsically there is little argument for Fred ex over cj long term, but if there were potential to get something in return for the one let go then it could be a more interesting debate as I suspect cj is more marketable for picks or players.

Also access to a time machine might help with fredex

[NickelCity]

PDaDdy, on 30 March 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

The entire game is based on speed. You have to be fast enough at your position to be effective. FJ is fast enough but we get slower with every passing day. His game IS built on being a smart veteran do it all RB who also runs very physically. That is not usually a recipe for longevity. Not saying he is just a bruiser because he has plenty of moves and sets up his o-line well...but Fred brings plenty of thump to get those yards when he needs it.

I really just find it amazing that people are so willing to discount Spiller's performance when the team had no other choice with it's best lineman our center going down and wild cat QBs and guys off the street playing WR. I am befuddled that people could even suggest getting rid of a 24 year old for a 31 year old.

I understand people's heart are with Fred but as a GM that is a dumb, Dumb, DUMB decision! Thinking FJ is going to produce like last year ever again is likely a fantasy. RB rarely repeat that kind of performance and doing so over the age of 30 would likely be unprecedented. Him doing it for 2, 3 or more years at 32, 33, 34+? Wake the hell up!

He would be the biggest freak of nature ever to play the RB position in the history of the NFL.

I'm saying that in your response to NewEra's post, you may have misread his point:

Quote

Fred's style isn't based on speed. It's based on instinct, smarts and toughness. 3 characteristics that age doesn't really hamper.

Now my point of view. The whole premise for this thread is ridiculous, and most savvy fans have realized it. Who would get rid of Spiller? Certainly not me. Good thing we don't have to. That being said, Fred was unbelievable last year, and if we're going on last years performance, he is better than Spiller right now. However, that does not mean that Spiller did not impress, it just means that Fred was incredible.

I think Fred should get more carries than CJ at the beginning of this season because: 1) Fred is probably still an excellent back and 2) it keeps Spiller healthy/fresh for when his time comes. The nice thing is, we're not locked into these proportions, and if Fred has drastically faded after his injury, then we can simply play CJ more. \\

Again, it's only the strawman that wants to get rid of CJ in favor of keeping Fred. The odd hypothetical suggested by this thread doesn't mean people would like to see CJ go.

[PDaDdy]

rstencel, on 30 March 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

Not discounting CJ, accounting for the MVP like performance of Freddy.  Dont Dump MVP for descent IMO.  Fell freddy is in top group of backs in whole league.  CJ dont fell is starter on 2/3's of teams in league.  Plus he got our QB killed with his awefull pass blocking, hence him getting pulled on 3rd downs most of the year.

I disagree completely. Look at CJs numbers for the last 5 or 6 games when he was the starter. Keep in your mind he did this on a team that was decimated by injuries. These injuries include our should be probowl center, our starting LT and any WR we had with speed that could help keep 8 men out of the box on offense. Add in the fact that our defense gave up 27.1 pts a week and we passed constantly his numbers are nothing short of GREAT. When I say great I mean Fred Jackson GREAT! CJ also had a knack for scoring more TDs per touch than Fred did which people don't seem to notice. Ya know...those things that put points on the board

Project CJs numbers for a year and you have a back that will get you 1,500 - 2,000 combined yards and 14+ TDs. What RBs in this league are better than that????? Very, VERY few. Only Adrian Peterson pre injuries, Chris Johnson  pre hold out and coaching change and Arian Foster. CJ puts up similar numbers to Fred Jackson and Matt Forte. Basically he would be a starter on almost ANY team in the NFL based on his production. Fred is a better blocker no doubt which is important. Unfortunately it seems to be too important in your eyes. It's the offensive line and the QB's job to prevent sacks.

Fitz got rid of the ball the fastest of any QB in the NFL. CJ's "blocking" was not what got Fitz killed. It was losing our best offensive lineman and center, Eric Wood, LT Bell being fragile and the rest of the guys and depth being OK.

[TheKidd]

DefenseWinzChampionshipz, on 28 March 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

It's not good to pretend as I tend to think a lot of things. Post this vote in 2 years when it might be an actual decision our GM will have to make. For now I absolutely LOVE Fred and wouldn't trade him for anybody (including C.J.) and I'm starting to love C.J.'s game also.

Let's pretend we won the $476 million dollar mega millions jackpot. What would you do? I would -

1. Invest in a bunch of real estate
2. Help out family and friends (obvious)
3. Hire a girl to do the little stuff my girlfriend never does like (scratch my back, massage, play with my ballz, etc.)
4. Hire a guy to speak for me. For example I go to a pizzeria, I whisper to my employee, "tell him I want I slice of pizza". My employee asks for the slice then I whisper "tell him not to hot please" and so on.
5. Buy a piece into the Bills organization and share with all of you guys.

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You forgot number 6

6. have a big party and bring in 500 hookers and strippers!