23 replies to this topic

[Logical Reasoning]

2010 - Clemson, ACC;  
            Central Florida, Conf USA
            Arkansas St, Southland Conf
            Conn, Big East
            James Madison, Atlantic Conf
            Troy, Southland

2011 - Alabama, SEC
            Texas, Big 12
            LSU, SEC
            North Carolina, ACC
            Clemson, ACC

2012 - South Carolina, SEC
            Georgia, SEC
            NC State, ACC
            Fl State, ACC
            LSU, SEC
            Oregon, PAC 10

It seems like there was an entire mindshift between 2010 and the latest two drafts.  I am not trying to take anything away from Troupe, Carrington, or Moats or the schools and conferences they come from, but when you compare those schools to the ones from 2011 and 2012; the teams and conferences are far superior, the players are better, and the Bills are better.  I am assuming that this years draft class won't have the injuries, cuts, or overall disappointing play of the 2010, class but how could you not think that when you look at the level of play of the their teams and conferences over a period of time.  I know that Modrak is gone and it looks like that is a good thing, but it seems as though someone came to the conclusion after 2010 that we were working simply too hard and trying to find that diamond in the rough.  With the exception of this years third round choice, I have not had that "Who the heck is that guy" feeling the last couple of years the way I did when I heard the Troupe and Carrington selections.    

CBS has an SEC team on every Saturday and it can sometimes be two games.  ESPN will find another at some point during the day too.  Major colleges with major programs will create major players in the NFL.  I am glad that Buddy and Chan are going in that direction.

[eball]

2010 -- Modrak still running the draft.

2011-12 -- Buddy running the show.

End of story.

[Green Lightning]

eball, on 01 May 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

2010 -- Modrak still running the draft.

2011-12 -- Buddy running the show.

End of story.

And that is that...you can spend your life looking back or looking ahead.  I'm looking ahead. Go Bills!

[All_Pro_Bills]

Logical Reasoning, on 01 May 2012 - 04:26 AM, said:

2010 - Clemson, ACC;  
            Central Florida, Conf USA
            Arkansas St, Southland Conf
            Conn, Big East
            James Madison, Atlantic Conf
            Troy, Southland

2011 - Alabama, SEC
            Texas, Big 12
            LSU, SEC
            North Carolina, ACC
            Clemson, ACC

2012 - South Carolina, SEC
            Georgia, SEC
            NC State, ACC
            Fl State, ACC
            LSU, SEC
            Oregon, PAC 10

It seems like there was an entire mindshift between 2010 and the latest two drafts.  I am not trying to take anything away from Troupe, Carrington, or Moats or the schools and conferences they come from, but when you compare those schools to the ones from 2011 and 2012; the teams and conferences are far superior, the players are better, and the Bills are better.  I am assuming that this years draft class won't have the injuries, cuts, or overall disappointing play of the 2010, class but how could you not think that when you look at the level of play of the their teams and conferences over a period of time.  I know that Modrak is gone and it looks like that is a good thing, but it seems as though someone came to the conclusion after 2010 that we were working simply too hard and trying to find that diamond in the rough.  With the exception of this years third round choice, I have not had that "Who the heck is that guy" feeling the last couple of years the way I did when I heard the Troupe and Carrington selections.    

CBS has an SEC team on every Saturday and it can sometimes be two games.  ESPN will find another at some point during the day too.  Major colleges with major programs will create major players in the NFL.  I am glad that Buddy and Chan are going in that direction.

The core message of your post also crossed my mind as I watched and reviewed the Bills draft.  

For too many years the front office people were swinging for the fences looking to unearth the 'diamond in the rough' or the overlooked player from a little known program that would turn into a star.  'Reaching' rather than doing a good job of evauating need, talent, and risk assessment in setting up their draft board and making their picks.  Many times the 21st century Pre-Buddy era Bills front office would seek to demonstrate how much smarter they were than the consensus on certain players.  Consistently they just looked plain stupid when it came to on the field production.  And the team and the fans suffered as a result.

This management team appears intent on building a team.  I think we'll look back at this time in a few years and celebrate it as the time the Bills turned the corner back to relevance.

[Mr. Wonderful]

eball, on 01 May 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

2010 -- Modrak still running the draft.

2011-12 -- Buddy running the show.

End of story.

Yep!

[BRAWNDO]

eball, on 01 May 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

2010 -- Modrak still running the draft.

2011-12 -- Buddy running the show.

End of story.

+ one million

[Mr. WEO]

eball, on 01 May 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

2010 -- Modrak still running the draft.

2011-12 -- Buddy running the show.

End of story.

Who was Head of National Scouting in 2009?  Who was GM in 2010?

You keeping pretending Buddy, a "scout through and through", didn't know all about every guy on his board in 2010 and that he wasn't the guy pulling the trigger on every pick.

This is impossoble to believe.  He's a career scout.  He was the GM.  He made those picks, not Modrak.

[eball]

Mr. WEO, on 01 May 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

Who was Head of National Scouting in 2009?  Who was GM in 2010?

You keeping pretending Buddy, a "scout through and through", didn't know all about every guy on his board in 2010 and that he wasn't the guy pulling the trigger on every pick.

This is impossoble to believe.  He's a career scout.  He was the GM.  He made those picks, not Modrak.

I expected to see you or BillsVet come nosing around.  Whatever; Modrak was "in charge" of the draft process through 2010.  Buddy came into the job at a disadvantage with respect to preparing an entire draft board, and no doubt relied heavily upon Modrak for that draft.  By the time Buddy had his people organized, Modrak had already been "demoted" and was then summarily dismissed following the 2011 draft.

And, oh by the way, I'm not claiming the players drafted in 2010 didn't have Buddy's input -- clearly they did (or should have), and I still have high hopes for many of them.  It is obvious, however, that once Buddy really "took charge" he changed the scouting department's focus, which is evidenced by the direction in which they have moved.

Is that "impossoble" to believe?

[Mr. WEO]

eball, on 01 May 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

I expected to see you or BillsVet come nosing around.  Whatever; Modrak was "in charge" of the draft process through 2010.  Buddy came into the job at a disadvantage with respect to preparing an entire draft board, and no doubt relied heavily upon Modrak for that draft.  By the time Buddy had his people organized, Modrak had already been "demoted" and was then summarily dismissed following the 2011 draft.

And, oh by the way, I'm not claiming the players drafted in 2010 didn't have Buddy's input -- clearly they did (or should have), and I still have high hopes for many of them.  It is obvious, however, that once Buddy really "took charge" he changed the scouting department's focus, which is evidenced by the direction in which they have moved.

Is that "impossoble" to believe?

Because Buddy was already heavily involved as a scout for the Bills before he became GM. He was scouting players in 2009 that he would pick in 2010, so there was no "disadvantage".  Your argument might make sense if Buddy was not a career scout and had not worked in that capacity for the Bills the previous year and he had come to the organization from somewhere else on 1/26/09.  None of that was true, however.


Modrak wasn't "in charge" of the 2010 draft--no matter how many times you tell yourself this, it's not true. He knew every one of those picks inside and out and picked exactly what he was looking for.  What's the big deal?

[atlbillsfan1975]

Mr. WEO, on 01 May 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

Because Buddy was already heavily involved as a scout for the Bills before he became GM. He was scouting players in 2009 that he would pick in 2010, so there was no "disadvantage".  Your argument might make sense if Buddy was not a career scout and had not worked in that capacity for the Bills the previous year and he had come to the organization from somewhere else on 1/26/09.  None of that was true, however.


Modrak wasn't "in charge" of the 2010 draft--no matter how many times you tell yourself this, it's not true. He knew every one of those picks inside and out and picked exactly what he was looking for.  What's the big deal?

Here is the thing about 2010 draft. Buddy was hired when? jan 3 2010, i believe. College season was over. buddy had no control how or where the scouts spent time scouting.
This is one important fact you overlook.

Yes Buddy was GM during the 2010 draft, but he had to largely go by what the old regimes scouts had focused on.

I would summise that since then Buddy has directed and dispatched his scouts to where he wanted them to focus their attention. Thus you have seen the focus of the draft move towards Southern Programs and in particular the SEC and ACC to a bit lesser extent.

Just my two cents.

As far as him being largely involved in the scouting, he was one for the South. But again he took office 3 1/2 months before the draft.

All i ask you is have you not seen a pattern emerging since Buddy has been entrenched and had time to develope the staff?

Is it not one you agree with now?

Unless you are Modrak or like him for some reason, why are you trying to make this arguement now? It would have been valid after the 2010 draft, but Buddy has proven where and what he like in two suppliment drafts.

Edited by atlbillsfan1975, 01 May 2012 - 10:32 AM.

[Kelly the Dog]

atlbillsfan1975, on 01 May 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

Here is the thing about 2010 draft. Buddy was hired when? jan 3 2010, i believe. College season was over. buddy had no control how or where the scouts spent time scouting.
This is one important fact you overlook.

Yes Buddy was GM during the 2010 draft, but he had to largely go by what the old regimes scouts had focused on.

I would summise that since then Buddy has directed and dispatched his scouts to where he wanted them to focus their attention. Thus you have seen the focus of the draft move towards Southern Programs and in particular the SEC and ACC to a bit lesser extent.

Just my two cents.

No, Buddy was hired as a scout under Modrak in early 2009. He had been with the Bills for a year before being named GM. I don't think he can be held responsible whatsoever for the 2009 draft, but he was the one making the picks in the 2010 draft, even though Modrak was still the Head of Scouting for the team. And it's not as though the team did not have scouts all over the south. It was Nix's draft and he had all the tools, with the notable exception that he hadn't had time yet to revamp the scouting department, lose Modrak, and bring it a couple of his own guys.

Edited by Kelly the Dog, 01 May 2012 - 10:34 AM.

[jeremy2020]

Mr. WEO, on 01 May 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

Who was Head of National Scouting in 2009?  Who was GM in 2010?

You keeping pretending Buddy, a "scout through and through", didn't know all about every guy on his board in 2010 and that he wasn't the guy pulling the trigger on every pick.

This is impossoble to believe.  He's a career scout.  He was the GM.  He made those picks, not Modrak.

I understand it's difficult to keep up with what is happening with the Bills. During that time, Buddy was 'a' scout. He may have been 'familiar' with players, but the Bills focus and their resources had already been allocated by other people. The scouting actually occurs during the previous college season for the most part.

Since then, Buddy fired Modrak and brought in a lot of his own people.

I hope this brief explanation helps further your understanding of how scouting works and inspires you to learn more.

[Mr. WEO]

atlbillsfan1975, on 01 May 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

Here is the thing about 2010 draft. Buddy was hired when? jan 3 2010, i believe. College season was over. buddy had no control how or where the scouts spent time scouting.

Kelly the Dog, on 01 May 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

No, Buddy was hired as a scout under Modrak in early 2009. He had been with the Bills for a year before being named GM. I don't think he can be held responsible whatsoever for the 2009 draft, but he was the one making the picks in the 2010 draft, even though Modrak was still the Head of Scouting for the team. And it's not as though the team did not have scouts all over the south. It was Nix's draft and he had all the tools, with the notable exception that he hadn't had time yet to revamp the scouting department, lose Modrak, and bring it a couple of his own guys.

As Kelly points out, Buddy wasn't hired in 2010.  He was in charge of "National Scouting" for the previous year.  Did you not know this?

[tjprime]

Kelly the Dog, on 01 May 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

No, Buddy was hired as a scout under Modrak in early 2009. He had been with the Bills for a year before being named GM. I don't think he can be held responsible whatsoever for the 2009 draft, but he was the one making the picks in the 2010 draft, even though Modrak was still the Head of Scouting for the team. And it's not as though the team did not have scouts all over the south. It was Nix's draft and he had all the tools, with the notable exception that he hadn't had time yet to revamp the scouting department, lose Modrak, and bring it a couple of his own guys.

this +1.
I will add though, buddy was still relying on Modrak's assembled talent for that draft and was given reports based off what Modrak told them to look for.  Don't forget that shortly after the 2010 draft Nix fired BOTH Modrak and John Guy and brought in Whaley and more scouts.  So while 2010 was Nix's draft, it still had Modrak's fingerprints on it.

Edited by tjprime, 01 May 2012 - 10:46 AM.

[Kelly the Dog]

tjprime, on 01 May 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

this +1.
I will add though, buddy was still relying on Modrak's assembled talent for that draft and was given reports based off what Modrak told them to look for.  Don't forget that shortly after the 2010 draft Nix fired BOTH Modrak and John Guy and brought in Whaley and more scouts.  So while 2010 was Nix's draft, it still had Modrak's fingerprints on it.

Not necessarily. We all know what Nix likes by now. It's not as though that has changed in the last couple years or since he was named GM. Nix also scouts a lot himself even now, he goes to games live every weekend and watches a ton of tape on college guys all year round. We had scouts in the south, and I guarantee that Nix looked 90% there for all of his players. Modrak was probably sitting in a corner during the draft feeling left out. I don't know that for sure but if I had to bet, Nix didn't rely on Modrak much at all, nor is Modrak wholly bad. We really don't know who was making the picks when Modrak was the head of scouting but it didn't seem to be Modrak.

[Logical Reasoning]

Kelly the Dog, on 01 May 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

Not necessarily. We all know what Nix likes by now. It's not as though that has changed in the last couple years or since he was named GM. Nix also scouts a lot himself even now, he goes to games live every weekend and watches a ton of tape on college guys all year round. We had scouts in the south, and I guarantee that Nix looked 90% there for all of his players. Modrak was probably sitting in a corner during the draft feeling left out. I don't know that for sure but if I had to bet, Nix didn't rely on Modrak much at all, nor is Modrak wholly bad. We really don't know who was making the picks when Modrak was the head of scouting but it didn't seem to be Modrak.

Let's face some facts here.  There are a bunch of layman fans out there who could have purchased a draft magazine and done a better job than what was done prior to Buddy taking over the reigns completely.  There are some head scouts, maybe Modrak, who felt that they had to justify the travel, hotel and ticket expenses that scouts cost and find the guy from the small school no one knows about.  That might be reach on my part, but I started off the post talking about 2010.  I could have included a bunch more and with this approach, a team will eventually find that Stevie Johnson or Fred Jackson or Jason Peters, but those guys as good as they are will never outdo the more simple approach.

[Kelly the Dog]

Logical Reasoning, on 01 May 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

Let's face some facts here.  There are a bunch of layman fans out there who could have purchased a draft magazine and done a better job than what was done prior to Buddy taking over the reigns completely.  There are some head scouts, maybe Modrak, who felt that they had to justify the travel, hotel and ticket expenses that scouts cost and find the guy from the small school no one knows about.  That might be reach on my part, but I started off the post talking about 2010.  I could have included a bunch more and with this approach, a team will eventually find that Stevie Johnson or Fred Jackson or Jason Peters, but those guys as good as they are will never outdo the more simple approach.

I think the fact is that Buddy Nix was all over Terrell Troup and Alex Carrington as people, players and draft picks and still is. We were transforming to a 3-4 defense and drastically needed a big NT and a 3-4 end because we had none. I guarantee you that Nix knew everything he had to know about those two and I would bet anything that if he had been with the Bills for three years he would have done the same thing. he probably still loves those two guys and he plans on them having a significant role for the team this year, even if they are not as well suited for the 4-3 as the 3-4 they were drafted for.

Secondly, it's impossible for us to know what the scouts role is in a lot of these evaluations, even the head scout like Modrak, when they are not making the final decision. Those picks are hard choices, and it's very close between player A, B and C for every single pick in every single round. But if you have Dick Jauron making the choices and not you, I don't think you can put too much blame on the head of scouting unless you know what the Bills board looked like at the time. It's fairly consensus opinion that Jauron made the maybin pick for example, against what Modrak wanted.

I'm not sticking up too much for Modrak because overall our drafts sucked when he was around, and Buddy didn't keep him around after a year or so. But the big flops seemed to not be his doing, like when TD was here and gambling on trades and Roscoe and JP and McCargo, etc.

[NoSaint]

Mr. WEO, on 01 May 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

Who was Head of National Scouting in 2009?  Who was GM in 2010?

You keeping pretending Buddy, a "scout through and through", didn't know all about every guy on his board in 2010 and that he wasn't the guy pulling the trigger on every pick.

This is impossoble to believe.  He's a career scout.  He was the GM.  He made those picks, not Modrak.

he made the 2010 picks, but for the 2009 college season, it wasnt just him setting the course for how and who scouts searched. yea he knew everyone on the board, but to say he took charge just 3 months before the draft in a year long process of evaluation and it had no effect on strategy is silly.

Kelly the Dog, on 01 May 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

Not necessarily. We all know what Nix likes by now. It's not as though that has changed in the last couple years or since he was named GM. Nix also scouts a lot himself even now, he goes to games live every weekend and watches a ton of tape on college guys all year round. We had scouts in the south, and I guarantee that Nix looked 90% there for all of his players. Modrak was probably sitting in a corner during the draft feeling left out. I don't know that for sure but if I had to bet, Nix didn't rely on Modrak much at all, nor is Modrak wholly bad. We really don't know who was making the picks when Modrak was the head of scouting but it didn't seem to be Modrak.

agreed on pretty much all points. its hard to surmise what happens behind closed doors, especially in a highly political situation like building an nfl franchise.... not that it needs to be that political, but it certainly seemed this management was very fractured throughout modraks tenure

Kelly the Dog, on 01 May 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

No, Buddy was hired as a scout under Modrak in early 2009. He had been with the Bills for a year before being named GM. I don't think he can be held responsible whatsoever for the 2009 draft, but he was the one making the picks in the 2010 draft, even though Modrak was still the Head of Scouting for the team. And it's not as though the team did not have scouts all over the south. It was Nix's draft and he had all the tools, with the notable exception that he hadn't had time yet to revamp the scouting department, lose Modrak, and bring it a couple of his own guys.

but he didnt have the ability to build a culture into his scouting. really get the priorities, and goals set. someone else did that for the entire 2009 calendar year... atleast thats the best i can guess. that whole scene was a mess.  

i dont doubt buddy went with guys he was familiar with from that falls work - but where he was and who he was looking at might not have been the same as if he were in charge the whole way through. plus building the coaching staff, turnover in free agency, etc... all took away time from being able to focus on scouting culture. the entire organization needed to be addressed. i think its safe to say that he wasnt afforded the same luxuries of preparation and freedoms of the job from april 2009-april 2010, as he has been the last two years.

Edited by NoSaint, 01 May 2012 - 11:34 AM.

[eball]

Kelly the Dog, on 01 May 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

No, Buddy was hired as a scout under Modrak in early 2009. He had been with the Bills for a year before being named GM. I don't think he can be held responsible whatsoever for the 2009 draft, but he was the one making the picks in the 2010 draft, even though Modrak was still the Head of Scouting for the team. And it's not as though the team did not have scouts all over the south. It was Nix's draft and he had all the tools, with the notable exception that he hadn't had time yet to revamp the scouting department, lose Modrak, and bring it a couple of his own guys.

I think this is the key point.  The direction of the scouting department had not yet become "Buddy's" prior to that 2010 draft.  That doesn't mean he didn't like and make the picks, but you can't look at the significant change in direction reflected in the 2011-2012 drafts and not at least suggest there's a correlation.

[Lurker]

All_Pro_Bills, on 01 May 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

The core message of your post also crossed my mind as I watched and reviewed the Bills draft.  

For too many years the front office people were swinging for the fences looking to unearth the 'diamond in the rough' or the overlooked player from a little known program that would turn into a star.  'Reaching' rather than doing a good job of evauating need, talent, and risk assessment in setting up their draft board and making their picks.  Many times the 21st century Pre-Buddy era Bills front office would seek to demonstrate how much smarter they were than the consensus on certain players.  Consistently they just looked plain stupid when it came to on the field production.  And the team and the fans suffered as a result.

This management team appears intent on building a team.  I think we'll look back at this time in a few years and celebrate it as the time the Bills turned the corner back to relevance.

Proverbial hammer on head of nail.

Donahoe set that "I'm smarter than you" tone, IMO.  His "input data" for that approach, provided by Modrak, was bad as well.

Buddy is the anti-Donahoe, and the team is better off for it...