40 replies to this topic

[caracara]

Hey y'all.  Unabashed VY freak from TX here, and new Bills fan.  I'll refrain from being too obnoxious about Vince.  Just a couple of things.  I love that the Bills front office and coaches, and some fans, are giving VY a fair shake. I think Gailey is about as straight-up as you get in the NFL. He's humble, but he's not going buckle to the group think.  Also, look into Chris Johnson's stats with Vince at QB, and without.  Yeah, Vince can run the wildcat., but I'd love to see him as a starter with a coach who supports him. That hasn't happened yet.  And check out his YT highlights from 09-10.  He's a starter imho. link

Edited by caracara, 12 May 2012 - 05:49 PM.

[Kelly the Dog]

Best Player Available, on 12 May 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

I wonder why they the pro coaching staff used too little of it last year?

BTW the  fitz & Fred comments was called sarcasm. Based on Young and how people believe he will be good at the wildcat although he has never ran one.

There were several reasons why they didn't and Gailey expressed them. First, there was no off season, so they had little time to install it properly and work on it extensively, not to mention that it was new to Gailey, too, and Smith was new to the team.

Second, early in the year they planned on using it a lot more, but the offense was clicking on so many levels in the first four five games that Gailey didn't force it into the game even though it was in the game plan to be used a lot more.

Third, around the fourth game or so, the injuries started to hit the OL and it was a different line-up pretty much every week for numerous weeks, especially with a rookie like Hairston playing as well as an inexperienced Rinehart. So they didn't want to mess to much with the linemen's heads, worried enough about them just getting their regular plays and techniques down.

Fourth, the WR starting falling like ten pins and soon Brad Smith was forced to play full time WR, and Gailey stopped practicing the Wildcat during the week so he stopped using it in the games. He was very much looking forward to using Smith a lot in it, and passing, too, after they had established that it was a run first option.

Gailey even said that he was very impressed with how well Smith could throw, and that is why they didn't even bother having an emergency or #3 QB on the practice squad.

Lastly, a lot of fans give Brad Smith a lot of grief for one play last year when he was out alone and about to throw a deep ball to a wide open WR downfield, and yet he didn't throw it. Except those fans didn't notice. because it wasn't on the TV screen view, that our WR was not at all wide open, there was a safety right there behind him and waiting for the ball. You can tell he was there because on another angle replay you can see him running there. Smith could see him and wisely didn't throw because it would have been a pretty easy pick. But fans were reaming him for it because it looked like no one was covering our guy.

[Best Player Available]

Kelly the Dog, on 12 May 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

There were several reasons why they didn't and Gailey expressed them. First, there was no off season, so they had little time to install it properly and work on it extensively, not to mention that it was new to Gailey, too, and Smith was new to the team.

Second, early in the year they planned on using it a lot more, but the offense was clicking on so many levels in the first four five games that Gailey didn't force it into the game even though it was in the game plan to be used a lot more.

Third, around the fourth game or so, the injuries started to hit the OL and it was a different line-up pretty much every week for numerous weeks, especially with a rookie like Hairston playing as well as an inexperienced Rinehart. So they didn't want to mess to much with the linemen's heads, worried enough about them just getting their regular plays and techniques down.

Fourth, the WR starting falling like ten pins and soon Brad Smith was forced to play full time WR, and Gailey stopped practicing the Wildcat during the week so he stopped using it in the games. He was very much looking forward to using Smith a lot in it, and passing, too, after they had established that it was a run first option.

Gailey even said that he was very impressed with how well Smith could throw, and that is why they didn't even bother having an emergency or #3 QB on the practice squad.

Lastly, a lot of fans give Brad Smith a lot of grief for one play last year when he was out alone and about to throw a deep ball to a wide open WR downfield, and yet he didn't throw it. Except those fans didn't notice. because it wasn't on the TV screen view, that our WR was not at all wide open, there was a safety right there behind him and waiting for the ball. You can tell he was there because on another angle replay you can see him running there. Smith could see him and wisely didn't throw because it would have been a pretty easy pick. But fans were reaming him for it because it looked like no one was covering our guy.

Most of your points seem logical. Except for this one. "There was no offseason". The good teams were good once again, passing yard records were smashed. A rookie QB broke a rookie passing record. All 32 teams were in the same predicament. I don't buy the no offseason thing. Unless a rookie coach or new coach had taken over a team. Look at the 49ers. Did they appear to miss OTA's and a full camp?  I really can't think of a player who had ever complained of the short OTa's, etc. I think it's an overused excuse.

[Kelly the Dog]

Best Player Available, on 12 May 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

Most of your points seem logical. Except for this one. "There was no offseason". The good teams were good once again, passing yard records were smashed. A rookie QB broke a rookie passing record. All 32 teams were in the same predicament. I don't buy the no offseason thing. Unless a rookie coach or new coach had taken over a team. Look at the 49ers. Did they appear to miss OTA's and a full camp?  I really can't think of a player who had ever complained of the short OTa's, etc. I think it's an overused excuse.

While I agree with you for the most part, when you are installing a sub package that is new for the coach as well as all the players, and to be run by a new player that the coach doesn't have a familiarity with, it's difficult to practice it enough to perfect it enough to be useful in the games. With a full off season and OTAs, it would have been much easier to install it. It wasn't like their base offense they were practicing every day.

I actually was criticizing Gailey for not using it from the point that Smith became a full time WR, thinking they didn't have to practice it much, and he could surely find ten minutes out of each practice to work on it. But I heard him talk about how much they had to work on it to get it working right and he just decided he needed to shut it completely down. That, to me, was an indication of how it's not so easy to just throw that in there and make it work.

[JohnC]

K-9, on 12 May 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

The so what is that you can't make a consistent living being that kind of QB in the NFL. Sooner or later, you have to rely on your ability to read a defense and take what it's giving you. A game or two here and there, especially if he comes in as a sub, then yeah, defenses will give up some plays to him. But once he's the one they game plan for, he gets shut down when teams DARE him to beat them by passing the ball.

GO BILLS!!!

If Young becomes the backup that is because he is beating out Thigpen, a qb the coaching staff refused to put in when the starter was injured. Last year the Bills lost 8 out of their last 9 games. The HC continued to not play Thigpen. What does that say how much confidence they had in TT?  

Is Vince Young the new franchise qb to replace Fitz? Probably not. He signed a reasonably priced one year deal that in the short term upgrades the backup qb position. What is wrong with that?

[Kelly the Dog]

JohnC, on 12 May 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

If Young becomes the backup that is because he is beating out Thigpen, a qb the coaching staff refused to put in when the starter was injured. Last year the Bills lost 8 out of their last 9 games. The HC continued to not play Thigpen. What does that say how much confidence they had in TT?  

I think this is getting blown way out of proportion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion obviously, but to me it had zero to do with confidence or no confidence in TT. Fitz could play. He said he wasn't hurt, the doctors said he could play, Gailey didn't even know he was injured for the most part, and to me, and to Nix and Gailey (because they have said as much) the collapse of the offense had to do with the injuries to the OL, the injuries to the WR, and the injuries to Fred and later Chandler, and then maybe Fitz's ribs.

He was well enough to play and play well. If he had time, and guys open, he would have been hitting them a lot easier, like earlier in the year. I just think he was playing through pain, and sure it affected him a little, but he could play the position and there was no reason to take him out. He gave the team the best chance to win, even though they didn't. And Thigpen wasn't going to do any better, because there wasn't a lot of opportunity to be better.

[ChanOverChin]

What makes the Wildcat viable is having the threat of the pass.  Without that, the defense will stack the LOS and stuff the play.  It works because when the QB runs the ball he has more blockers compared to a conventional handoff to a RB/FB.

  Kordell Stewart ran a version of the Wildcat in his day and had a lot of success with it.  I'm sure Gailey sees Young as a more athletic version of Stewart, call him "Slash2" if you will.  Gailey/Lee will make the most of Young's ability.  If Gailey can make Stewart successful he can certainly do the same with the big/stronger/faster Young who was a holy terror whenhe took off and ran the ball in college.

[JohnC]

Kelly the Dog, on 12 May 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

I think this is getting blown way out of proportion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion obviously, but to me it had zero to do with confidence or no confidence in TT.

If there is so much confidence in TT then why was VY signed? The signing of VY has little to do with competing with the current starter as much as it does with replacing TT as the backup. Don't be surprised if TT doesn't make the final roster when the season begins. Just my opinion.

[K-9]

JohnC, on 12 May 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

If there is so much confidence in TT then why was VY signed? The signing of VY has little to do with competing with the current starter as much as it does with replacing TT as the backup. Don't be surprised if TT doesn't make the final roster when the season begins. Just my opinion.

I think you're correct. There's a good chance Thigpen gets cut. It's obvious the Bills aren't happy with their backup QB situation. I think the only way TT stays is if VY shows absolutely nothing at all in camp and preseseason while TT lights it up.

GO BILLS!!!

[Kelly the Dog]

JohnC, on 12 May 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

If there is so much confidence in TT then why was VY signed? The signing of VY has little to do with competing with the current starter as much as it does with replacing TT as the backup. Don't be surprised if TT doesn't make the final roster when the season begins. Just my opinion.

Oh I agree that Thigpen is likely gone. But it's not hard to see why anyone would think Vince Young has more talent than Tyler Thigpen. My point was simply that Gailey said he knew little about the injury, Fitz said the injury didn't bother him, the doctors didn't put up a red flag. It probably rarely occurred to Gailey to put Thigpen in. He likely never even considered it. But that also very likely had nothing to do with his confidence or lack there of, in Thigpen.

Put it this way, they just signed Vince Young to a contract worth less per year and less this year than what they signed Thigpen to exactly a year ago. They didn't think Thigpen sucked. And I would bet anything that Gailey didn't think he sucked. And if you saw the videos, Gailey had little or nothing to do with the Young signing, other than he was on board with it after watching him throw at his visit.

[bowery4]

Kelly the Dog, on 12 May 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

I think this is getting blown way out of proportion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion obviously, but to me it had zero to do with confidence or no confidence in TT. Fitz could play. He said he wasn't hurt, the doctors said he could play, Gailey didn't even know he was injured for the most part, and to me, and to Nix and Gailey (because they have said as much) the collapse of the offense had to do with the injuries to the OL, the injuries to the WR, and the injuries to Fred and later Chandler, and then maybe Fitz's ribs.

He was well enough to play and play well. If he had time, and guys open, he would have been hitting them a lot easier, like earlier in the year. I just think he was playing through pain, and sure it affected him a little, but he could play the position and there was no reason to take him out. He gave the team the best chance to win, even though they didn't. And Thigpen wasn't going to do any better, because there wasn't a lot of opportunity to be better.

Nice, injecting good opinions on here. I pretty much agree, but having had 1 broken rib once, I can't imagine Fitz's pain threshold. He is one tough MFer.

[BuffaloFan68]

I can see it now, Young takes the snap on 3rd & 6 and dumps it off to B Smith who laterals it back to Young & Young throws it for a 50 yard strike to a wide open receiver for a TD!
  Later in the game it's 3rd & 4, the Bills put in Young & Smith again. Young takes the snap and pitches it to B Smith who rolls out, fakes a lateral back to Young & then runs for a 25 yard gain.  
  The possibilities are endless!!!

[808]

the wild cat is just a option and VY has ran option plays before. the upside he has over other players is defenses have to respect the run still and cant stack the line or he will  dump it over them.  the reason you also run the wild cat is forcing the other team to have to put plays in for that instance during practices and what not taking time away from practicing other things. hes a better thrower than brad smith and a better runner too probably. he will probably beat out thigpen for the back up spot so its not really a big deal.

[uncle flap]

caracara, on 12 May 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

Hey y'all.  Unabashed VY freak from TX here, and new Bills fan.  I'll refrain from being too obnoxious about Vince.  Just a couple of things.  I love that the Bills front office and coaches, and some fans, are giving VY a fair shake. I think Gailey is about as straight-up as you get in the NFL. He's humble, but he's not going buckle to the group think.  Also, look into Chris Johnson's stats with Vince at QB, and without.  Yeah, Vince can run the wildcat., but I'd love to see him as a starter with a coach who supports him. That hasn't happened yet.  And check out his YT highlights from 09-10.  He's a starter imho. link

Welcome! Cool video - we'll see where he winds up on the depth chart but if he can still make plays like that they'll have to get him on the field in some capacity. I'm looking forward to see what the coaches cook up for him.

[Hplarrm]

Kelly the Dog, on 12 May 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Oh I agree that Thigpen is likely gone. But it's not hard to see why anyone would think Vince Young has more talent than Tyler Thigpen. My point was simply that Gailey said he knew little about the injury, Fitz said the injury didn't bother him, the doctors didn't put up a red flag. It probably rarely occurred to Gailey to put Thigpen in. He likely never even considered it. But that also very likely had nothing to do with his confidence or lack there of, in Thigpen.

Put it this way, they just signed Vince Young to a contract worth less per year and less this year than what they signed Thigpen to exactly a year ago. They didn't think Thigpen sucked. And I would bet anything that Gailey didn't think he sucked. And if you saw the videos, Gailey had little or nothing to do with the Young signing, other than he was on board with it after watching him throw at his visit.

My GUESS on this is that we will see relatively early in the pre-season one of the big reasons that the Chan led Bills acquired Young which is that to the extent there is even the threat that he may be in on some critical plays, then opposing DCs will be forced to gameplan for this talented unorthodox (though unfortunately not a team player in the past- but this year is a one year tryout for him to hit the market and like TO was for us was relatively trouble free in his tryout year).

Time they spend game planning for the use of VY (and gameplanning for the Wildcat run by Smith) is time they will not spend gsmeplanning for the bsdr offense run by Fitzy.

Even worse, opposing teams will need to probably drop a half day of reps where they implement again and again against the probabilities of the Bills base O, but instead learn new D approaches and formations to be used when Smith lines up in the Wildcat or Young enters the game.

We MIGHT get an early tell in pre-season if we see the Bills employing unusual sets which utilize VY and Smith on the field.  Normally the pre-sewason sees teams running fairly vanilla versions of their plays in order to maintain the element of surprise when the regular season starts.

However, one of the primary things VY brings to the Bills (particularly after we saw how Gailey used the Wildcat last year) is that our O might get the best benefit of showing opponents what we might do in terms of unusual packages and plays from these packages in order to force opposing DCs tow spend time on scheming and implementing for a variety of attacks.

The NFL has become more an more a league of recognition and reaction being the keys for teams.  The Bills might best be able to employ the offensivewizardry of Gailey by showing multiple looks.  Rather than being vanilla in pre-season, by employing diverse packages (even if we do not use them in the regular season a lot) we force meaningless prep by opponents and give our team some practice doing these unusual things.

[Geno Smith's Arm]

I think they needed a better backup QB, and Vince Young was available, and cheap. As long as Fitz is playing reasonably well, Young will barely get any snaps, and most of those will be in blowouts.

[Mr. WEO]

The wildcat with Smith was used 20 times last season---mostly in the first half of the season.  The overwhelming majority of times it was used on 1st or 2nd down.  Only 8 times on 3rd down, resulting in only 3 first downs.

Smith isn't a good passer.  Every team knows this.  Every team knows he will run in that scenario.

We need to develop a fundamentally sound offense before we decide which backup QB will be involved in the trick plays that few good teams bother to employ.

[Quester74]

K-9, on 12 May 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

I'm all for that. Last season, Smith missed a few big play passing opportunities from the wildcat simply because he isn't a very good passer. Not that VY is the most accurate but I'd like to think he's more accurate than Smith.

GO BILLS!!!

I'd like to think a Coke machine is more accurate a passer than Brad Smith.

[Doc]

Mr. WEO, on 13 May 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

The wildcat with Smith was used 20 times last season---mostly in the first half of the season.  The overwhelming majority of times it was used on 1st or 2nd down.  Only 8 times on 3rd down, resulting in only 3 first downs.

Smith isn't a good passer.  Every team knows this.  Every team knows he will run in that scenario.

We need to develop a fundamentally sound offense before we decide which backup QB will be involved in the trick plays that few good teams bother to employ.

The offense was fundamentally sound before injuries struck (i.e. the first half of the season, to which you referred).  Depth appears to be much better this year.  And with most of the same players returning this year and in the same scheme, adding stuff like this are what they should be doing.  The problem that "most good teams" have is they don't have a backup QB with the ability to run and pass.

Edited by Doc, 13 May 2012 - 04:57 PM.

[Geno Smith's Arm]

Doc, on 13 May 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

The offense was fundamentally sound before injuries struck (i.e. the first half of the season, to which you referred).  Depth appears to be much better this year.  And with most of the same players returning this year and in the same scheme, adding stuff like this are what they should be doing.  The problem that "most good teams" have is they don't have a backup QB with the ability to run and pass.

I think people are reading too much into the VY deal. I think he is a good backup, because he can be effective (short term) with a limited playbook. I don't believe that they want to use him much, and that they would much rather have Fitz lighting it up with a conventional offense.