143 replies to this topic

[KD in CT]

Billsrhody, on 21 June 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

This all when he was a teenager. Lets not pretend we know how Percy Harvin had it growing up. Sure the guy had some issues when he was a kid, but he's 24 now and has been a model citizen for the past 3 years.

No felony assaults in 3 whole years?!?  Wow, what an impressive display of self control!

[NoSaint]

KD in CT, on 21 June 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

No felony assaults in 3 whole years?!?  Wow, what an impressive display of self control!

that we know of, of course - it still amazes me that everyone assumes that not being arrested equates to "cleaned up their act and not doing anything bad"

[Billsrhody]

NoSaint, on 21 June 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

ill bet you anything in the world the coaches told him "we will do whatever it takes to keep you happy"

and its been awhile, but what were the issues with dillon and harrison, as far as putting themselves before their teams? i dont remember at all what caused the harrison release (though what i know of him as a player is win at all costs, not me at all costs), and i thought dillon was a combo of being tired of losing (again, wanting to win at all costs, not do what i want) and rudi johnson having a big season before he was hurt and that he was getting older.

i still think we are speaking a different language on this.

Not saying they were me guys, just that the patriots have taken chances on guys with character issues. Rodney was a notoriously dirty player and was constantly fined and suspended. Dillon was unhappy in Cinci after Johnson started getting the carries and basically talked his way out of town.

The coaches probably spoke with Harvin after that interview.. but my point is that he was pretty calm in the interview. Its not like he was whining or losing his cool.

[KD in CT]

NoSaint, on 21 June 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

that we know of, of course - it still amazes me that everyone assumes that not being arrested equates to "cleaned up their act and not doing anything bad"

Not just "not doing anything bad", but rather "a model citizen".  

Another two years without an arrest and the Vatican can start getting his Sainthood paperwork in order.

[stony]

Captain Hindsight, on 21 June 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

So in 3 years after we've won 3 super bowls in a row, we can bring him in

Easy Lebron, I'll take one lol.

[NoSaint]

Billsrhody, on 21 June 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

Not saying they were me guys, just that the patriots have taken chances on guys with character issues. Rodney was a notoriously dirty player and was constantly fined and suspended. Dillon was unhappy in Cinci after Johnson started getting the carries and basically talked his way out of town.

The coaches probably spoke with Harvin after that interview.. but my point is that he was pretty calm in the interview. Its not like he was whining or losing his cool.

like i said - harrison was a win at all costs guy, and dillon was upset because he thought the bengals were not trying to build a winning team (heck, they had like one scout on the entire payroll - that was a rather unreasonable situation). neither guy has ANYTHING in common with what im saying about harvin if i remember the situations correctly. neither gave anything short of 100% or caused trouble beyond dillon making some comments that he was tired of getting beat up if the owner wasnt going to match his effort. sure, neither was a model citizen though. even if there are some issues that im forgetting - certainly there are exceptions to rules, and there are mistakes. i really dont remember either having a long track record of being a head case, or selfish. maybe one of them is the perfect example for what your arguing, but i still dont want to hope for the rare exception to a pretty easy rule to spot.

im talking about guys like TO, randy moss, santonio holmes - harvin has the same issues with not seeing the big picture of what it takes to be a winning team and winning organization. hes focused on what he wants, and others be damned. its followed him for as far back as we can track.


and thats not to say everyone has to be a choir boy, and no one can ever mess up - but its such an extended track record that without some sort of real reason to believe its changed - you just cant assume it has. or atleast i wont.

as i said, agree to disagree. if you could put up the poster child for what i dont want in this locker room - he would be under consideration for the face of that.

KD in CT, on 21 June 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

Not just "not doing anything bad", but rather "a model citizen".  

Another two years without an arrest and the Vatican can start getting his Sainthood paperwork in order.

and mistakes do happen and good guys can have a bad day etc..... but for the sake of all that is holy, i dont understand where you draw the line and say "i need to see some real deep soul searching, intensive therapy, and a medicinal cocktail you wouldnt want to pay for" if not with a guy that has this track record. "aww shucks guys, i havent heard about anything lately" just doesnt do it. i also havent heard anyone come out and say "yea we took a chance on him and look how awesome hes been and hes done x y and z to put those days behind him - arent i an awesome guy for helping turn his life around." his lack of a feel good story to come out of that front offices press machine speaks volumes.

and i totally forgot about the 2010 drama with him and chilly -

they had to be separated in a locker room argument over the moss trade (where it was said that if not for intervention it was likely to be another physical altercation with a coach), and chilly also called him out about faking an injury in 2010.

Screw. that. guy. its an embarassment that the nfl puts up with stuff like that just cause he can run real fast.

Edited by NoSaint, 21 June 2012 - 05:17 PM.

[over 20 years of fanhood]

For one I feel like I remember he had troubles getting on the same page as Farve in the minn offense. If true, that might be a problem.

I also feel like he is not much different of a player than a spiller graham or jones in what he brings to the table.

[SameOldBills]

BUFFALOTONE, on 20 June 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

He was a cancer at UF, he is a cancer in Minnesota and plays when he wants. Not our type of guy. This is the same guy that choked out his WRs coach and walked off the field during conditioning becuase he felt he didn't need it. Very talented but it stops there.

We was literally the greatest player to ever play at UF

[CDogg20]

TheNewBills, on 21 June 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

We was literally the greatest player to ever play at UF

Thats a pretty bold statement, emmit smith comes to mind before percy

[Garranimal]

NoSaint, on 21 June 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

that we know of, of course - it still amazes me that everyone assumes that not being arrested equates to "cleaned up their act and not doing anything bad"

This argument is interesting. One guy can is taking a look at the actual statement, how it was said and the past for what they are in reality, and the other guys have done everything from determining that no arrests or trouble for three years is STILL an indictment of character, 3 missed games in three years is a reliability problem (how many has freddie missed) and even how his statements are a result of some concocted fantasy of what the coaches told Percy.  Its amazing how easy it is to be negative about anything on the internet where facts never get in the way of a good point of view.

[NoSaint]

Garranimal, on 22 June 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

This argument is interesting. One guy can is taking a look at the actual statement, how it was said and the past for what they are in reality, and the other guys have done everything from determining that no arrests or trouble for three years is STILL an indictment of character, 3 missed games in three years is a reliability problem (how many has freddie missed) and even how his statements are a result of some concocted fantasy of what the coaches told Percy.  Its amazing how easy it is to be negative about anything on the internet where facts never get in the way of a good point of view.

He had to be seperated from his coach last year, and was even accused of faking an injury to get out of practice.

What an awesome dude.

But he wasn't arrested! The guys been a consistent headcase, and there's no indication he did anything to change it, so why would we assume he's suddenly a model citizen? It just wouldn't make sense. And on further review, I'll say was wrong, as he has had issues in those 3 years.

Edited by NoSaint, 22 June 2012 - 07:13 AM.

[Billsrhody]

NoSaint, on 22 June 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

He had to be seperated from his coach last year, and was even accused of faking an injury to get out of practice.

What an awesome dude.

But he wasn't arrested! The guys been a consistent headcase, and there's no indication he did anything to change it, so why would we assume he's suddenly a model citizen? It just wouldn't make sense. And on further review, I'll say was wrong, as he has had issues in those 3 years.

Well I guess thats just where we disagree. You need to see an indication that he has changed. I take his lack of incidents for a sign that he has changed.

Truth is, neither of us know whats going on in Harvin's head. To his credit, that heated argument with Childress was over cutting one of his teammates. Its hard to call that selfish, if anything he was being a good teammate. I think thats a tough one to tack on to his negative track record. Childress called him about for not being tough enough to play through an injury in practice. Thats really not a big deal. He was actually injured and players skip practices on friday all the time to get healthy for sunday.

[NoSaint]

Billsrhody, on 22 June 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

Well I guess thats just where we disagree. You need to see an indication that he has changed. I take his lack of incidents for a sign that he has changed.

Truth is, neither of us know whats going on in Harvin's head. To his credit, that heated argument with Childress was over cutting one of his teammates. Its hard to call that selfish, if anything he was being a good teammate. I think thats a tough one to tack on to his negative track record. Childress called him about for not being tough enough to play through an injury in practice. Thats really not a big deal. He was actually injured and players skip practices on friday all the time to get healthy for sunday.

and i thought about that while writing it - but its still a huuuuge reaction. ill give credit that it was a volatile locker room at that point. but its still unnacceptable and its hard to make excuses when he has a track record of not respecting authority (if you consider childress an authority?!?!). it just seems he burns through a lot of these "he was young and changed" and "he was just being a good teammate" and such. its a huge volume of incidents that we know of in the last 7(?) years. i just dont get where you draw the line at this point, unless (and if this is the case theres no harm in it) it is that hes so talented that character just doesnt matter at all.

weve racked up an assualt of a coach, having to be separated from a coach, sitting down at practice and cursing a coach, multiple drug violations, being banned from hs sports for a series of incidents (contact with a ref, causing a bench clearing brawl that prevented the game from ending), missing rookie otas and then i believe the symposium because he was dehydrated with flu like symptoms (maybe he was sick, but....), accused of faking an injury (maybe just chilly being vindictive, its possible) and now going public that hes not happy with his role on the team... and thats just what has been reported. it sounds like a guy with actual medical issues along the lines of a personality disorder, not someone that just needs a team first locker room to get better.

at some point a reasonable person says "wow, ive messed up so many times, im going to just keep my head down and not draw attention for awhile, even if i dont love my situation."

Edited by NoSaint, 22 June 2012 - 08:44 AM.

[Billsrhody]

NoSaint, on 22 June 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

and i thought about that while writing it - but its still a huuuuge reaction. ill give credit that it was a volatile locker room at that point. but its still unnacceptable and its hard to make excuses when he has a track record of not respecting authority (if you consider childress an authority?!?!). it just seems he burns through a lot of these "he was young and changed" and "he was just being a good teammate" and such. its a huge volume of incidents that we know of in the last 7(?) years. i just dont get where you draw the line at this point, unless (and if this is the case theres no harm in it) it is that hes so talented that character just doesnt matter at all.

weve racked up an assualt of a coach, having to be separated from a coach, sitting down at practice and cursing a coach, multiple drug violations, being banned from hs sports for a series of incidents (contact with a ref, causing a bench clearing brawl that prevented the game from ending), missing rookie otas and then i believe the symposium because he was dehydrated with flu like symptoms (maybe he was sick, but....), accused of faking an injury (maybe just chilly being vindictive, its possible) and now going public that hes not happy with his role on the team... and thats just what has been reported. it sounds like a guy with actual medical issues along the lines of a personality disorder, not someone that just needs a team first locker room to get better.

at some point a reasonable person says "wow, ive messed up so many times, im going to just keep my head down and not draw attention for awhile, even if i dont love my situation."

Well I think we can agree that Harvin probably isn't a reasonable person and probably isn't particular smart either.

I agree that getting into a heated argument with a coach isn't a great thing to be doing. But if its for the right reasons and it doesn't escalate beyond that then I'm not going to crucify a guy for it. I know you probably aren't going to agree with me at all, but I think the guy has shown some movement in the right direction. I know you have the opinion that the vikings could be sweeping some Harvin issues under the rug, but if he was fighting with coaches or sitting out practices, those kinds of things would make it to the public. If he's had any issues, then they must have been minor. So since the combine we've got:

"Missing OTAs" - because of the flu... are you really going to try to spin that into a work ethic problem?
The "heated argument" - which showed he was sticking up for a teammate and his temper flared.
The "faking injury" - where he had gotten injured in the previous game and had just had an argument with the coach accusing him
The "unhappy situation" - where he calmly told the media he was unhappy with his role on the team and requested a trade. But he was back at practice the next day and worked out with his team. I know you're going to say that the vikings told him he could have whatever he wanted, and that may be true. All that means is that he voiced a concern, they gave him reassurances, and everyone is happy now.

He may have medical problems and he might not be the brightest guy. But he's been a good teammate with a few minor issues since coming into the league. If the biggest problems I have to deal with are him adamantly sticking up for teammates and publicly voicing his desire to be more involved in the offense, then I think his talent is worth having on my football team.

[NoSaint]

Billsrhody, on 22 June 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

Well I think we can agree that Harvin probably isn't a reasonable person and probably isn't particular smart either.

I agree that getting into a heated argument with a coach isn't a great thing to be doing. But if its for the right reasons and it doesn't escalate beyond that then I'm not going to crucify a guy for it. I know you probably aren't going to agree with me at all, but I think the guy has shown some movement in the right direction. I know you have the opinion that the vikings could be sweeping some Harvin issues under the rug, but if he was fighting with coaches or sitting out practices, those kinds of things would make it to the public. If he's had any issues, then they must have been minor. So since the combine we've got:

"Missing OTAs" - because of the flu... are you really going to try to spin that into a work ethic problem?
The "heated argument" - which showed he was sticking up for a teammate and his temper flared.
The "faking injury" - where he had gotten injured in the previous game and had just had an argument with the coach accusing him
The "unhappy situation" - where he calmly told the media he was unhappy with his role on the team and requested a trade. But he was back at practice the next day and worked out with his team. I know you're going to say that the vikings told him he could have whatever he wanted, and that may be true. All that means is that he voiced a concern, they gave him reassurances, and everyone is happy now.

He may have medical problems and he might not be the brightest guy. But he's been a good teammate with a few minor issues since coming into the league. If the biggest problems I have to deal with are him adamantly sticking up for teammates and publicly voicing his desire to be more involved in the offense, then I think his talent is worth having on my football team.

the ota thing was rumored that he just partied to hard and ended up not participating. again, a rumor though. i get what you are saying, and i think given his track record im just not as quick to give him the benefit of the doubt on situations. that said, it doesnt mean im definitely right.

Edited by NoSaint, 22 June 2012 - 09:47 AM.

[BUFFALOTONE]

TheNewBills, on 21 June 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

We was literally the greatest player to ever play at UF

Athlete - Yes, football player not even close....

[Dorkington]

NoSaint, on 21 June 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

that we know of, of course - it still amazes me that everyone assumes that not being arrested equates to "cleaned up their act and not doing anything bad"

Guilty until proven innocent.

Well, at least if you're black.

[Billsrhody]

NoSaint, on 22 June 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

the ota thing was rumored that he just partied to hard and ended up not participating. again, a rumor though. i get what you are saying, and i think given his track record im just not as quick to give him the benefit of the doubt on situations. that said, it doesnt mean im definitely right.

I guess time will tell with Percy Harvin. I'll definitely be keeping a close eye on him after this debate.

[NoSaint]

Dorkington, on 22 June 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

Guilty until proven innocent.

Well, at least if you're black.

clearly.

Billsrhody, on 22 June 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

I guess time will tell with Percy Harvin. I'll definitely be keeping a close eye on him after this debate.

likewise - i was just a bit shocked - even on a few good boards i skim for nfl news, it seemed people were clueless that he had any track record at all. i saw threads several pages long where thered be one post on the first page along the lines of "no thanks, head case" and just pages of people asking what they were talking about, and i try to stick to boards that are really well versed in stuff like this, so it was odd.

[Garranimal]

NoSaint, on 22 June 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

clearly.


likewise - i was just a bit shocked - even on a few good boards i skim for nfl news, it seemed people were clueless that he had any track record at all. i saw threads several pages long where thered be one post on the first page along the lines of "no thanks, head case" and just pages of people asking what they were talking about, and i try to stick to boards that are really well versed in stuff like this, so it was odd.

Maybe that is because the majority of his issues have been internal football problems and not DUI's, domestic violence or arrests for peeing in public. Additionally, are there any Vikings who didn't have a problem with Brad Childress? Yes, the same Brad Childress who was fired and out of work for two years and now holds the prestigious title of "Offensive Coordinator.....for the Browns".