77 replies to this topic

[Joe_the_6_pack]

IMO most everyone's short list would include:

Brady
Brees
PManning

Next with the greatest support (but not on all lists):

EManning
Rodgers
Roethlisberger


I don't think any other vets make it, and rookies (RG3, Luck, etc) too early to include.

Be interested what others think.

Edited by Joe_the_6_pack, 07 December 2012 - 08:46 PM.

[NoSaint]

Rodgers is in the first group.

[snafu]

Yep, all of them are mainly pocket QBs, not read option guys. You need a guy who can stay in the pocket more than relying on his legs. I know there's a trend in the opposite direction, but the elite QBs also don't get pounded on every other play.

[Numark]

NoSaint, on 07 December 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

Rodgers is in the first group.

[jboyst62]

2005
Consenseus:
Peyton Manning
Kurt Warner

Rising:
Roethlisberger
Tom Brady

Debatable:
Donovan McNabb
Carson Palmer

2000
Consenseus:
Peyton Manning
Rich Gannon
Troy Aikman
Brett Favre

Debatable:
Donovan
2005
Consenseus:
Peyton Manning
Kurt Warner

Rising:
Roethlisberger
Tom Brady

Debatable:
Donovan McNabb
Carson Palmer

2000
Consenseus:
Peyton Manning
Rich Gannon
Troy Aikman
Brett Favre

Debatable:
Donovan McNabb

Of note - Michael Vick is not on the list in those years, but would not be on them otherwise, for just being amazing a few seasons.
Brees was not elite until 2008 or 2009?

There have not been many super QB's in this league but this is a league where guys like Chad Pennington, Jon Kitna, Patrick Ramsey, and Kerry Collins lit it up.

We need a QB, no surprise, but we have Fitzpatrick and he is going to be our QB in 2013.

[8and8Forever]

Joe_the_6_pack, on 07 December 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

IMO most everyone's short list would include:

Brady
Brees
PManning

Next with the greatest support (but not on all lists):

EManning
Rodgers
Roethlisberger


I don't think any other vets make it, and rookies (RG3, Luck, etc) too early to include.

Be interested what others think.

yep, thats the list.  that is it.   Flacco, Ryan.. um .. no.    they will not carry a team.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

NoSaint, on 07 December 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

Rodgers is in the first group.

Numark, on 07 December 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

[Ed_Roch]

I don't think I'd call Rich Gannon elite.  I recall him having a couple of good years with the Raiders, in fact I'd call them very good years, but don't recall much of anything else about his career.  And the fact that I don't recall much says he's not elite!

As for the rest of the list, agree, Rogers should be in the "A" group.  Eli Manning based on big game play belongs there, but still overall needs to show a little more besides playing great every three years. He's very close, likely hte next person to graduate to the "A" team

[Joe_the_6_pack]

Quote

We need a QB, no surprise, but we have Fitzpatrick and he is going to be our QB in 2013.

Not exactly what I was after but I know some people are sensitive around here.

But since you brought it up let's see if we can make some observations about how to acquire an all important franchise QB (the 6 guys in my OP claim the last 9 SB rings ).

- All but one* was a 1st round selection. I think of breed as 1st round because although he was technically 2nd round he was 32nd overall. For those that don't want to accept that fine, then I'll just say "top 32".

- two of them (brees and pmanning) were acquired as FA's. In both cases there were injury concerns.

So it would seem like overwhelming evidence that a franchise QB comes from round 1... Dont bother trying to get cute and llok for someone who falls to round 2 or 3. The rookie salary cap makes it even more compelling than ever to take one due to limited financial risk. And if a former Rd1 whose performed at pro level is available due to injury concern, they're worth a try.

Edited by Joe_the_6_pack, 07 December 2012 - 11:12 PM.

[jboyst62]

Ed_Roch, on 07 December 2012 - 10:54 PM, said:

I don't think I'd call Rich Gannon elite.  I recall him having a couple of good years with the Raiders, in fact I'd call them very good years, but don't recall much of anything else about his career.  And the fact that I don't recall much says he's not elite!

As for the rest of the list, agree, Rogers should be in the "A" group.  Eli Manning based on big game play belongs there, but still overall needs to show a little more besides playing great every three years. He's very close, likely hte next person to graduate to the "A" team

I do not know, I guess for those few years, though, as a QB...he was elite.  I put him on there for that, which was impressive.  Kurt Warner is pretty much the same way and benefited from similar styles of offense.

Joe_the_6_pack, on 07 December 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

Not exactly what I was after but I know some people are sensitive around here.

But since you brought it up let's see if we can make some observations about how to acquire an all important franchise QB (the 6 guys in my OP claim the last 9 SB rings ).

- All but one* was a 1st round selection. I think of breed as 1st round because although he was technically 2nd round he was 32nd overall. For those that don't want to accept that fine, then I'll just say "top 32".

- two of them (brees and pmanning) were acquired as FA's. In both cases there were injury concerns.

So it would seem like overwhelming evidence that a franchise QB comes from round 1... Dont bother trying to get cute and llok for someone who falls to round 2 or 3. The rookie salary cap makes it even more compelling than ever to take one due to limited financial risk. And if a former Rd1 whose performed at pro level is available due to injury concern, they're worth a try.

I was adding to your point, especially noting how those elite QB's are elite for a number of years and do not show up over night - because they fade just like over night.

Big Ben, Eli - those two are the elites going forward.  Rodgers is already there and unless he falls quickly he will stay there.  I agree there is only one place to get a QB in todays NFL, even with the FA design.  I, though, am frustrated with the league for putting the QB this sacred and forgetting numerous other positions.  It is done in the name of safety but they have done nothing to protect the OL/DL...but that's another topic!  

I like this thread, it needs to ring home with people that the elite QB we want is not just going to pop up - and in this years draft I really don't know if he's out there.

[Alphadawg7]

Joe_the_6_pack, on 07 December 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

IMO most everyone's short list would include:

Brady
Brees
PManning

Next with the greatest support (but not on all lists):

EManning
Rodgers
Roethlisberger


I don't think any other vets make it, and rookies (RG3, Luck, etc) too early to include.

Be interested what others think.

No offense, but I am just curious of what reasons you could come up with to not have Rodgers listed as an Elite QB.  He is probably the best QB in football right now.  

Second, there is just no way Big Ben should be left off the list too.  Big Ben has been consistently great in this league pretty much since he came into the league and has played HUGE in the big games, especially the Super Bowls.  In fact, he IMO has been a much better post season QB than even Peyton Manning has.  

These guys are clearly Elite QB's in the NFL right now:  Rodgers, Peyton, Brady, Brees, and Big Ben.  Eli Manning is kind of semi-elite for me.  He has up and down moments in the regular season, but he really turns it on during the stretch runs and playoffs when it matters most.  I have a hard time calling him elite, but I also have a hard time of not calling him elite after his two historic playoff and Super Bowl runs in the last few years.  

I will say this, I know its early, but I am going to say both RG3 and Luck will evolve into elite status, and possibly in the next season or two.  They still have to prove a lot, but they both have the makings of an elite QB IMO based on what they are doing for their teams this year.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Yes. Big Ben is elite too, in my book.

I have him ahead of Eli right now.

[mjt328]

Here is my list


Tier 1 (Elite)
I consider these the guys that could go to any team in the NFL and instantly make them Super Bowl contenders.

- Aaron Rodgers
- Peyton Manning
- Drew Brees
- Tom Brady

Tier 2 (Semi-Elite)
They need a little more help than the guys above, but still consistently raise the level of the players around them.

- Ben Roethlisberger
- Eli Manning
- Matt Ryan

Tier 3 (Solid)
With a good team around them, their team has a chance to go far in the postseason.

- Phillip Rivers
- Matt Shaub
- Joe Flacco
- Jay Cutler
- Matthew Stafford
- Josh Freeman (borderline)
- Tony Romo (borderline)

Tier 2 (Fringe)
These guys probably hurt their team more than help it.  They only have success with elite players around them.

- Alex Smith
- Michael Vick
- Carson Palmer
- Ryan Fitzpatrick
- Matt Cassel
- Kevin Kolb

Tier 1 (Backups)
Only good for occasional relief duty.

- I don't have anyone on this list currently.


Too early to rank:
- Andrew Luck
- Robert Griffin III
- Andy Dalton
- Cam Newton
- Sam Bradford
- Jake Locker
- Russell Wilson
- Ryan Tannehill
- Christian Ponder
- Brandon Weeden
- Blaine Gabbert

[Charles Romes]

A Rodgers is at the very top based on his age and the fact has has the only true rocket arm on the list of 6 with Ben.   Rodgers only negative is his height.  Only 6-2. Rivers used to be in the top6 but dropped our.

[Mark80]

Here's my take on an elite QB...would i sacrifice something moderately important for him to join the Bills, say my pinky toe.

1.  Tom Brady - Yes
2.  Aaron Rodgers - Hell yes
3.  Peyton - Come on now, Seriously?
4.  Drew Brees - Absolutely
5.  Andrew Luck - No doubt
6.  RGIII - Of Course
7.  Eli - Mr. Clutch?  Ah, yeah!

No one else is is worth my worthless toe, but Ben is close.

Edited by Mark80, 08 December 2012 - 01:52 AM.

[BigCountryBills]

Todays Elite QBs born in the 1980s
#1 Aaron Rodgers (career 5-2 playoff record)
#2 Eli Manning (career 8-3 playoff record)
#3 Ben Roethlusberger (career 10-4 playoff record)

Fading Elite born in the 1970s
#1 Peyton Manning (2-4 in last 6 playoff games)
#2 Drew Brees (1-2 in last 3 playoff games)
#3 Tom Brady (6-6 in last 12 playoff games after starting 10-0)

Rising Elite born after 1985
#1 Matt Ryan (0 playoff wins)
#2 Andrew Luck (plays clutch in 4th qtr)
#3 RGIII (most athletic QB since Vick with better smarts, arm, & vision)

In all honesty the greatest factor here is: ability & skill. 7 of 9 are 1st round draft picks, Drew Brees early 2nd round & the lone outlier being Brady. Given Spygate, the front office, resources, coaching & the fact Matt Cassel looked Bradyesque in '08 could Brady's success be more about New England than the player?

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Matt Ryan has a long ways to go in my book.

A long ways.

[Section242]

Cam Newton would've been considered a guy on the rise going into this season.  I don't think anybody is close to the top 6 guys in Peyton, Brady, Brees, Ben, Eli, and Rodgers.  Matt Ryan would be the top guy in the 2nd tier.

[KOKBILLS]

NoSaint, on 07 December 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

Rodgers is in the first group.

Agreed...

[NoSaint]

San Jose Bills Fan, on 08 December 2012 - 12:05 AM, said:

Yes. Big Ben is elite too, in my book.

I have him ahead of Eli right now.

Agreed- I didn't say it as there was a perception amongst fans factor in how he worded it. Rodgers I think is 100% agreed upon, I think you might get some people who argue Ben (but solely that he's just a small notch behind that group, not that he's a bum).