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I think I know why CJ doesn't get on the field more...


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#1 jonramz

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:07 PM

Whether or not it is smart or not to keep him on the bench.  

CJ Spiller is really bad in pass protection.  Like seriously bad.  Teams are starting to blitz more when CJ is in there in obvious passing situations, so not only does this prevent him from running a pattern b/c he has to stay in and block, but it also gets a blitzer matched up on a sub-par blocker.  Teams do this a lot against the Saints as well... but they have Brees who can make plays better than Fitz can.  It was a bigger problem than usual on Sunday b/c of all backups on the OL going against a good Rams DL.

If you get a chance watch what happens when CJ has to stay in and block... it's not pretty.

CJ definitely needs the ball more... but this is my reasoning on why he is out of the game so much.  

-Jon

Edited by jonramz, 10 December 2012 - 12:07 PM.


#2 NoSaint

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:12 PM

View Postjonramz, on 10 December 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

Whether or not it is smart or not to keep him on the bench.  

CJ Spiller is really bad in pass protection.  Like seriously bad.  Teams are starting to blitz more when CJ is in there in obvious passing situations, so not only does this prevent him from running a pattern b/c he has to stay in and block, but it also gets a blitzer matched up on a sub-par blocker.  Teams do this a lot against the Saints as well... but they have Brees who can make plays better than Fitz can.  It was a bigger problem than usual on Sunday b/c of all backups on the OL going against a good Rams DL.

If you get a chance watch what happens when CJ has to stay in and block... it's not pretty.

CJ definitely needs the ball more... but this is my reasoning on why he is out of the game so much.  

-Jon

it mirrors what we heard a bit the last couple years and matches that hed get few chances with a weakened line.

i always assumed the "gets too excited with big runs" equates to "after he does something good, he follows it up with mental lapses likely because hes all amped up and thinks he can take on the world."

i havent keyed in on either aspect too much and would love to see some breakdown if you have it though. it does seem that chan likes the electricity of him but doesnt trust him either.

Edited by NoSaint, 10 December 2012 - 12:15 PM.


#3 LiterateStylish

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:20 PM

View Postjonramz, on 10 December 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

Whether or not it is smart or not to keep him on the bench.  

CJ Spiller is really bad in pass protection.  Like seriously bad.  Teams are starting to blitz more when CJ is in there in obvious passing situations, so not only does this prevent him from running a pattern b/c he has to stay in and block, but it also gets a blitzer matched up on a sub-par blocker.  Teams do this a lot against the Saints as well... but they have Brees who can make plays better than Fitz can.  It was a bigger problem than usual on Sunday b/c of all backups on the OL going against a good Rams DL.

If you get a chance watch what happens when CJ has to stay in and block... it's not pretty.

CJ definitely needs the ball more... but this is my reasoning on why he is out of the game so much.  

-Jon

I don't think he's that bad in pass protection at all. Is Fred better? Sure. But CJ isn't much worse than the average NFL RB.

#4 NoSaint

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:23 PM

View PostLiterateStylish, on 10 December 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:



I don't think he's that bad in pass protection at all. Is Fred better? Sure. But CJ isn't much worse than the average NFL RB.

whats tough, and why i havent tried to chase this personally, is its especially hard to break out and quantify what the assignments are at that point. did the line fail, did he? should he have read to stay in and block, should he have gone out, etc....

id be curious to see a real breakdown as its just about the only explanation that makes any sense at this point.

#5 ShipUPride

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:26 PM

Then put a TE on the line and stop going 4 wide.  There are things a good coach can do to adjust to a RB that can't pass block.  Its not rocket science.

#6 Wayne Cubed

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:28 PM

View PostNoSaint, on 10 December 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

whats tough, and why i havent tried to chase this personally, is its especially hard to break out and quantify what the assignments are at that point. did the line fail, did he? should he have read to stay in and block, should he have gone out, etc....

id be curious to see a real breakdown as its just about the only explanation that makes any sense at this point.

IDK, Chan is using the fatigue excuse quite a bit... :wallbash:

#7 jonramz

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:29 PM

View PostLiterateStylish, on 10 December 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

I don't think he's that bad in pass protection at all. Is Fred better? Sure. But CJ isn't much worse than the average NFL RB.

Oh man, I disagree strongly... Fred in my opinion one of the best RB's in the NFL in pass pro.  CJ on the other hand, makes mistakes and when he does pick up the correct guy he is often time overpowered and gets pushed back really easily.

View PostNoSaint, on 10 December 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

whats tough, and why i havent tried to chase this personally, is its especially hard to break out and quantify what the assignments are at that point. did the line fail, did he? should he have read to stay in and block, should he have gone out, etc....

id be curious to see a real breakdown as its just about the only explanation that makes any sense at this point.

I'll see if I can do some examples later today or tomorrow w/ video from the game Sunday

View PostWayne Cubed, on 10 December 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

IDK, Chan is using the fatigue excuse quite a bit... :wallbash:

Exactly... we all know it's not fatigue, but Chan isn't going to throw his best offensive weapon under the bus either

#8 cantankerous

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:30 PM

This is complete BS. Spiller is more than adequate at picking up the blitz. If Gailey expects him to stop a 265lb DE by himself then he's not very sharp.

There is NO viable excuse.

#9 NoSaint

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:32 PM

View Postjonramz, on 10 December 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:



Oh man, I disagree strongly... Fred in my opinion one of the best RB's in the NFL in pass pro.  CJ on the other hand, makes mistakes and when he does pick up the correct guy he is often time overpowered and gets pushed back really easily.



I'll see if I can do some examples later today or tomorrow w/ video from the game Sunday



Exactly... we all know it's not fatigue, but Chan isn't going to throw his best offensive weapon under the bus either

i figured you would - and appreciate that you have been.

theres no way chan doesnt see spiller as better with the ball in his hands. i just cant imagine that is the actual reason. which means the only logical answer is that chan thinks he is much worse when the ball isnt in his hands.

that or chan doesnt want to win on purpose.

#10 ALF

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:36 PM

If it's a obvious passing situation, let a offensive linemen be a running back for a extra blocker or he could run it ? A healthy O line should solve this problem in the future. CJ can run and catch, 2 out of 3 is very good.

#11 BuffBill

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:38 PM

View Postjonramz, on 10 December 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

Whether or not it is smart or not to keep him on the bench.  

CJ Spiller is really bad in pass protection.  Like seriously bad.  Teams are starting to blitz more when CJ is in there in obvious passing situations, so not only does this prevent him from running a pattern b/c he has to stay in and block, but it also gets a blitzer matched up on a sub-par blocker.  Teams do this a lot against the Saints as well... but they have Brees who can make plays better than Fitz can.  It was a bigger problem than usual on Sunday b/c of all backups on the OL going against a good Rams DL.

If you get a chance watch what happens when CJ has to stay in and block... it's not pretty.

CJ definitely needs the ball more... but this is my reasoning on why he is out of the game so much.  

-Jon
CJ has improved some, but yea, he is pretty bad in pass protection.  I am a huge Fred Jackson fan, but I still think CJ should have gotten more carries then the few he had.  You don't need to pass protect to hand him the ball?

#12 Alphadawg7

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:47 PM

View Postjonramz, on 10 December 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

Whether or not it is smart or not to keep him on the bench.  

CJ Spiller is really bad in pass protection.  Like seriously bad.  Teams are starting to blitz more when CJ is in there in obvious passing situations, so not only does this prevent him from running a pattern b/c he has to stay in and block, but it also gets a blitzer matched up on a sub-par blocker.  Teams do this a lot against the Saints as well... but they have Brees who can make plays better than Fitz can.  It was a bigger problem than usual on Sunday b/c of all backups on the OL going against a good Rams DL.

If you get a chance watch what happens when CJ has to stay in and block... it's not pretty.

CJ definitely needs the ball more... but this is my reasoning on why he is out of the game so much.  

-Jon

I totally disagree.  I watch him in pass protection a lot and he actually is better than most RBs, especially given his size.  Not to mention the high praise he has received from his teammates and coaches for really elevating his pass protection.  

I feel like he may miss one and then all of a sudden fans mind set goes back to his rookie year where he was still learning how to do it and you forget all the other great blitz pickups.  

I'm sorry, but I just have to completely disagree and feel like this is more speculation based on maybe a play or two rather than his overall performance and ability to pick up the blitz.  Not to mention, Fred has missed his share of pass protection assigents too...why...because they are RB's going up against huge and fast lineman, ends, or LBs most of the time.  It's gonna happen sometimes, but Spiller is pretty good at it and so is Fred.

Edited by Alphadawg7, 10 December 2012 - 12:48 PM.


#13 Ryan L Billz

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:53 PM

agree this is complete BS.........everyone has acknoledged Spiller's vast improvement in the pass blocking field a long time ago.

Chan's just looking out for Fitz and forgetting about the running game, and i guess Fred is slightly better with the pass blocking.

now the bills are the laughingstock of the league again....Yesssss!    FIRE CHAN.

#14 jonramz

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:56 PM

View PostAlphadawg7, on 10 December 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

I totally disagree.  I watch him in pass protection a lot and he actually is better than most RBs, especially given his size.  Not to mention the high praise he has received from his teammates and coaches for really elevating his pass protection.  

I feel like he may miss one and then all of a sudden fans mind set goes back to his rookie year where he was still learning how to do it and you forget all the other great blitz pickups.  

I'm sorry, but I just have to completely disagree and feel like this is more speculation based on maybe a play or two rather than his overall performance and ability to pick up the blitz.  Not to mention, Fred has missed his share of pass protection assigents too...why...because they are RB's going up against huge and fast lineman, ends, or LBs most of the time.  It's gonna happen sometimes, but Spiller is pretty good at it and so is Fred.

that's fine we can agree to disagree... I'm always open to discussion

#15 Bangarang

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:59 PM

Put a TE on the line and put both CJ and Jackson in the backfield. The possibilities are endless with draw plays to either back, play actions, using CJ as a decoy, putting him in motion etc.

Being an OC isn't my full time job and even I can think of several ways to make use of CJ and have the defense guess and respect the possibilities.

#16 cantankerous

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:00 PM

View PostAlphadawg7, on 10 December 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

I totally disagree.  I watch him in pass protection a lot and he actually is better than most RBs, especially given his size.  Not to mention the high praise he has received from his teammates and coaches for really elevating his pass protection.  

I feel like he may miss one and then all of a sudden fans mind set goes back to his rookie year where he was still learning how to do it and you forget all the other great blitz pickups.  

I'm sorry, but I just have to completely disagree and feel like this is more speculation based on maybe a play or two rather than his overall performance and ability to pick up the blitz.  Not to mention, Fred has missed his share of pass protection assigents too...why...because they are RB's going up against huge and fast lineman, ends, or LBs most of the time.  It's gonna happen sometimes, but Spiller is pretty good at it and so is Fred.

You are correct. So many times we've seen 3rd and whatever with an EMPTY backfield. We saw it again yesterday. 3rd and 4...let's telegraph our play call with an empty set!

I pay attention to Spiller's play, and it's easy because he's not in the game all that often. He does a fine job of pass protecting.

#17 Fezmid

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:33 PM

View Postcantankerous, on 10 December 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

You are correct. So many times we've seen 3rd and whatever with an EMPTY backfield. We saw it again yesterday. 3rd and 4...let's telegraph our play call with an empty set!
To be fair, it seems that all NFL teams do this.  I don't get it, but it happens all the time.

#18 JoeCz

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:54 PM

I'm sure the original poster is correct.

By his own admission, Spiller's just not that good at pass protection: "Today I let a couple of my pass pro’s kind of slip a little bit."

That's from yesterday's postgame remarks.

We all want to see Spiller with the ball more, but Gailey's got to decide if he can live with the risk of Fitz getting killed out there on passing plays. And if Spiller is only in on running plays, don't you think the other team gets wise to it?

Spiller needs to improve that part of his game if he wants to get on the field more. It's that simple.

#19 Bronc24

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:59 PM

Then perhaps we should stop throwing the damn ball so much.

#20 Bufcomments

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:59 PM

View PostJoeCz, on 10 December 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

I'm sure the original poster is correct.

By his own admission, Spiller's just not that good at pass protection: "Today I let a couple of my pass pro’s kind of slip a little bit."

That's from yesterday's postgame remarks.

We all want to see Spiller with the ball more, but Gailey's got to decide if he can live with the risk of Fitz getting killed out there on passing plays. And if Spiller is only in on running plays, don't you think the other team gets wise to it?

Spiller needs to improve that part of his game if he wants to get on the field more. It's that simple.
Well if he only plays 10 plays a game how is he gonna get better at it??

There is no excuse for one of the most talented players in the league not to be on the field. Period.