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Wannstedt is also the Assistant Head Coach...


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#1 BuffaloBillsForever

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 09:22 PM

With how bad Wannstedt ran this defense this year, I forgot he was also the assistant head coach the last two years.

Then I came to realize, Gailey wasn't always a bad head coach for the Bills.  Is it a coincidence that Gailey started to regress as soon as he hired Wannstedt? Now I wonder what duties Wannstedt had as AHC?

#2 NoSaint

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 09:26 PM

View PostBuffaloBillsForever, on 29 December 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

With how bad Wannstedt ran this defense this year, I forgot he was also the assistant head coach the last two years.

Then I came to realize, Gailey wasn't always a bad head coach for the Bills.  Is it a coincidence that Gailey started to regress as soon as he hired Wannstedt? Now I wonder what duties Wannstedt had as AHC?

To be fair - defenses have run off the rails everywhere.

New Orleans is about to set records for worst defense

TB is about to give up the most passing yards ever

Qbs are shattering records the last two years

Were bad, but not uniquely bad (like many think).

#3 Billsfan4ever14580

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 09:30 PM

View PostBuffaloBillsForever, on 29 December 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

With how bad Wannstedt ran this defense this year, I forgot he was also the assistant head coach the last two years.

Then I came to realize, Gailey wasn't always a bad head coach for the Bills.  Is it a coincidence that Gailey started to regress as soon as he hired Wannstedt? Now I wonder what duties Wannstedt had as AHC?

Huh?

Gailey wasn't always bad as a head coach? When was he good?

And what did Wanny have to do with Chan's performance as HC other than being the AHC on some of the worst defenses the Bills ever had?

Not sure where you are going with this?

#4 BuffaloBillsForever

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 09:38 PM

View PostNoSaint, on 29 December 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

To be fair - defenses have run off the rails everywhere.

New Orleans is about to set records for worst defense

TB is about to give up the most passing yards ever

Qbs are shattering records the last two years

Were bad, but not uniquely bad (like many think).

We are uniquely bad in the sense of what we invested in the offseason on the defense and the return (lack there of).

New Orleans has been bad defensively since the superbowl and they have not done anything to fix it.

View PostBillsfan4ever14580, on 29 December 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

Huh?

Gailey wasn't always bad as a head coach? When was he good?

And what did Wanny have to do with Chan's performance as HC other than being the AHC on some of the worst defenses the Bills ever had?

Not sure where you are going with this?

This is exactly what I am wondering. Chan seemed less prepared this year. I wonder if there was any delegating during the week other than  the defensive duties? I get the impression Chan really trusts Wannstedt to do his thing.

Edited by BuffaloBillsForever, 29 December 2012 - 09:40 PM.


#5 Billsfan4ever14580

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:08 PM

View PostBuffaloBillsForever, on 29 December 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

We are uniquely bad in the sense of what we invested in the offseason on the defense and the return (lack there of).

New Orleans has been bad defensively since the superbowl and they have not done anything to fix it.



This is exactly what I am wondering. Chan seemed less prepared this year. I wonder if there was any delegating during the week other than  the defensive duties? I get the impression Chan really trusts Wannstedt to do his thing.

I agree....I remember when Chan first came in people were dogging Edwards at SJFU training camp and Chan said something to the effect of "You dog one of us you dog us all" That was a coach with fire and enthousiasm. Now he looks like a sad defeated man. He has tried so hard to be successful and failed so much he can't be anything but defeated.

As a person I feel for him, as a fan he needs to go.....all the questionable calls and the fact he won't change from what he "knows what works" makes me question his ability to handle the job he has

#6 KeisterHollow

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:42 PM

View PostNoSaint, on 29 December 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

To be fair - defenses have run off the rails everywhere.

New Orleans is about to set records for worst defense

TB is about to give up the most passing yards ever

Qbs are shattering records the last two years

Were bad, but not uniquely bad (like many think).

That's true, and a good point - but, I also believe great defenses can still win.  Nevertheless, it has become very clear that a potent offense trumps a potent defense in today's NFL.  An excellent offense and an average defense will take a team all the way these days quite frequently, I think, while an exceptional defense and a mediocre offense will have a harder time going to distance.

All that being said, I'm glad we've invested in defense - and, I don't think we're as far off, personnel wise, as many people suggest.  It's much more of an attitude, and strategy, and vision deficiency than personnel inferiority.  The right coach could have us looking good in no time.

#7 purple haze

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:47 PM

View PostNoSaint, on 29 December 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

To be fair - defenses have run off the rails everywhere.

New Orleans is about to set records for worst defense

TB is about to give up the most passing yards ever

Qbs are shattering records the last two years

Were bad, but not uniquely bad (like many think).

Rules are weighted toward offensive success.  You can't tackle.  You can't touch the QB.  DB's can't look at WR's.  Defense was bound to get bad.
Some defenses can overcome it, but they all suffer from too many ticky-tack rules.

#8 SBUffalo

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:49 PM

Chan was never good

#9 mrags

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:52 PM

Please don't make anymore posts like this. Buddy might read them and realize that if we get rid of Wanny, Chan will automatically be better. We wouldn't want Chan keeping his job.

#10 NoSaint

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:54 PM

View PostBuffaloBillsForever, on 29 December 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:



We are uniquely bad in the sense of what we invested in the offseason on the defense and the return (lack there of).

New Orleans has been bad defensively since the superbowl and they have not done anything to fix it.

To the first half - we switched from a 34 to a 43 and our biggest investment in our LBs was a midround rookie. Think on that a bit.

To the latter half, and it's off topic to this thread a bit but since 09 the saints drafted a first round safety, first round corner, first round DE, signed Curtis lofton (should've been on the plane with Mario instead of meachem), brought in free agents like Broderick bunkley at DT, David Hawthorne (another value LB we should've looked at), and signed spags.... And still may set records. You could likewise look at Tampa who is about to set records (and not the good kind).

It's year one of the defensive rebuild (major scheme shift), and we only added a rookie corner, a DE that was on IR most of the year, a DE that had to get his wrist fixed in the bye week, and a 4th round rookie LB. That's not a ton of pieces, despite Mario being a TON of money.

Edited by NoSaint, 29 December 2012 - 10:57 PM.


#11 Max997

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:27 PM

View PostBillsfan4ever14580, on 29 December 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:



Huh?

Gailey wasn't always bad as a head coach? When was he good?

And what did Wanny have to do with Chan's performance as HC other than being the AHC on some of the worst defenses the Bills ever had?

Not sure where you are going with this?

Exactly!

#12 FeartheLosing

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 02:12 AM

View PostNoSaint, on 29 December 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

To be fair - defenses have run off the rails everywhere.

New Orleans is about to set records for worst defense

TB is about to give up the most passing yards ever

Qbs are shattering records the last two years

Were bad, but not uniquely bad (like many think).
I disagree.

The Buffalo Bills are about to set a new franchise record for points allowed, and second in yards allowed. They set two NFL records, allowing back to back 500+ yard games since the 50's. and an NFL first ever!! A 300 yard passer and 300 yards rushing in the same game.

Those two teams have reasons for being bad. The Saints lost their DC & HC this year because of a suspension and a bunch of defensive players were also suspended. Is it any wonder why that team is in disarray.  The Buc's have a new coaching staff, DC Bill Sheridan has one previous year of NFL experience as a DC, and the Buc's didn't pay 100 million to a FA DE.

Lets not forget that the current Buffalo Bills are ranked dead last in the NFL last against the run. Dave Wannstedt has got to be the worst ever hire as DC, considering his background and NFL experience.

Edited by FeartheLosing, 30 December 2012 - 02:13 AM.


#13 BuffaloBillsForever

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 08:31 AM

View PostFeartheLosing, on 30 December 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

I disagree.

The Buffalo Bills are about to set a new franchise record for points allowed, and second in yards allowed. They set two NFL records, allowing back to back 500+ yard games since the 50's. and an NFL first ever!! A 300 yard passer and 300 yards rushing in the same game.

Those two teams have reasons for being bad. The Saints lost their DC & HC this year because of a suspension and a bunch of defensive players were also suspended. Is it any wonder why that team is in disarray.  The Buc's have a new coaching staff, DC Bill Sheridan has one previous year of NFL experience as a DC, and the Buc's didn't pay 100 million to a FA DE.

Lets not forget that the current Buffalo Bills are ranked dead last in the NFL last against the run. Dave Wannstedt has got to be the worst ever hire as DC, considering his background and NFL experience.

Exactly. And when people talk about a big change in 34-43 scheme from Edwards to Wannstedt don't even know the actual scheme Edwards ran. Our last defensive coordinator actually ran a 34/43 hybrid. What was the majority base defense, it was a 43! So the base scheme is irrelevant.

The stats you mention are egregious. Fearthelosing where does our defense rank in running yards allowed all-time?

Edited by BuffaloBillsForever, 30 December 2012 - 08:33 AM.


#14 FeartheLosing

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 10:23 AM

View PostBuffaloBillsForever, on 30 December 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

Exactly. And when people talk about a big change in 34-43 scheme from Edwards to Wannstedt don't even know the actual scheme Edwards ran. Our last defensive coordinator actually ran a 34/43 hybrid. What was the majority base defense, it was a 43! So the base scheme is irrelevant.

The stats you mention are egregious. Fearthelosing where does our defense rank in running yards allowed all-time?
The thing is, with a coach who has as much NFL / overall experience as Wannstedt, you would expect the Bills players to be well schooled in tackling, gap discipline, and overall good play in their respective positions. Why did it take most of the season for this defense to finally learn and understand their duties?  I watched in disbelief as that supposed vaunted Bills D Line was pushed all over the place the first part of the season.

Most coaches will tell you that the easiest part of coaching a team is getting the defense up to speed, by far!  When the NFL runs the pro bowl they scale back what the defense is allowed to do in order to protect the star QB's
Defense must run a 4-3 at all times, No press coverage except inside the 5 yard line, No blitzing, Not allowed to rush a punt, PAT or FG attempt.

Geez, does that defense look familiar to anyone else?  Is it any wonder why every QB the Bills played against looked like an all pro? (save Arizona, who has the worst O line in the game)

Thru the first 7 games of the season the Bills the Bills were allowing 5.95 per carry, the most in league history!! Since then they have gotten to 4.91 YPA, and over the last 4 games have allowed a league best 3.14 :blink:  Now, if that defense had a front 7 of all rookies, then I could give a decent reason for the huge learning curve.

Expectations were so high at the beginning of the season, and rightfully so with a DC with 35+ years of coaching experience, and a history of building a SB winning Dallas Cowboy 4-3 defense.  Some people might consider that Wannstedt had the defense tank in the beginning of the season so he could get his good buddy Chan fired, the result could be that he would be hired to replace him...who knows.

48 points to the 6-9 Jets, opening game
45 points to the 49ers...a running team
35 points to Tennessee ... this game was a pivotal loss, Wannstedt & Gailey should have been fired during the bye week
50 points to the Seahawks...a rookie QB who the Bills could have drafted in the 3rd round.

It was embarrassing to be a Buffalo Bills fan this season on so many levels, and still is. Nix, Gailey Wannstedt all gotta go.



http://www.pro-footb...yds_per_att_opp

#15 NoSaint

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 10:39 AM

View PostFeartheLosing, on 30 December 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

I disagree.

The Buffalo Bills are about to set a new franchise record for points allowed, and second in yards allowed. They set two NFL records, allowing back to back 500+ yard games since the 50's. and an NFL first ever!! A 300 yard passer and 300 yards rushing in the same game.

Those two teams have reasons for being bad. The Saints lost their DC & HC this year because of a suspension and a bunch of defensive players were also suspended. Is it any wonder why that team is in disarray.  The Buc's have a new coaching staff, DC Bill Sheridan has one previous year of NFL experience as a DC, and the Buc's didn't pay 100 million to a FA DE.

Lets not forget that the current Buffalo Bills are ranked dead last in the NFL last against the run. Dave Wannstedt has got to be the worst ever hire as DC, considering his background and NFL experience.

Just an FYI, while its been a distraction - no saints player ever missed a game due to bounty gate, and their DC is Steve Spagnoulo - also not suspended. In fact, having watched every game from each unit- their were a lot of common threads as spags likes to run a 43 and get pressure from the front 4 but took about a month to get the players settled into it (saw an amazing stat about how poorly his teams have done in their first month- which I think might be able to translate here) before starting to gel and looking better once they trust the scheme (sound familiar?)..... Like I said - bad but not uniquely bad.

Two main reasons I reference these - 1) I've seen spags mentioned as a chan replacement a few times, 2) the "worst ever in the nfl by a longshot" is a bit exaggerated. A lot of bad defensive performances out there this year. Heck the lions have been terrible too (top Dline, weak back 7)

Edited by NoSaint, 30 December 2012 - 10:41 AM.


#16 BuffaloBillsForever

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 10:41 AM

I had high hopes for Wannstedt too. My mind is boggled how much of a disappointment he has been. Not only is the scheme garbage, like you said the players look confused an unprepared. Just look at the read-option the last 3 weeks.  You can point to talent as an issue but it is part coaching as well.

#17 FeartheLosing

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 12:02 PM

View PostNoSaint, on 30 December 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Just an FYI, while its been a distraction - no saints player ever missed a game due to bounty gate, and their DC is Steve Spagnoulo - also not suspended. In fact, having watched every game from each unit- their were a lot of common threads as spags likes to run a 43 and get pressure from the front 4 but took about a month to get the players settled into it (saw an amazing stat about how poorly his teams have done in their first month- which I think might be able to translate here) before starting to gel and looking better once they trust the scheme (sound familiar?)..... Like I said - bad but not uniquely bad.

Two main reasons I reference these - 1) I've seen spags mentioned as a chan replacement a few times, 2) the "worst ever in the nfl by a longshot" is a bit exaggerated. A lot of bad defensive performances out there this year. Heck the lions have been terrible too (top Dline, weak back 7)
The Lions run a weird defense predicated on the offense scoring first, and keeping a lead.  Which to say the least, is moronic!  The Detroit news ran an article on it as Jim Schwartz set it up.  The "wide 9"  they routinely allow the opposing RB's to gash for big gains but it supposedly helps their pass rush.  If I'm not mistaken the Eagles tried to run this same defensive scheme early this season and it got their DC fired.

The Saints lost both HC & DC for the season, and some players were unable to attend some off season activities and training camp. While you might not think this is a big deal, apparently it has been and thats why they are the worst defense this season.

While the Saints are not uniquely bad. I would have to state the Buffalo Bills have been uniquely bad this season, considering that D line. Just look at the first ever NFL record they broke. A DC with as much experience as Wannstedt. He was the assistant HC as well as LBer coach on the team last year. He was supposed to help George Edwards with the defense, how did that go? Oh, he got him fired so he could replace him huh?

#18 NoSaint

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 12:16 PM

View PostFeartheLosing, on 30 December 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

The Lions run a weird defense predicated on the offense scoring first, and keeping a lead.  Which to say the least, is moronic!  The Detroit news ran an article on it as Jim Schwartz set it up.  The "wide 9"  they routinely allow the opposing RB's to gash for big gains but it supposedly helps their pass rush.  If I'm not mistaken the Eagles tried to run this same defensive scheme early this season and it got their DC fired.

The Saints lost both HC & DC for the season, and some players were unable to attend some off season activities and training camp. While you might not think this is a big deal, apparently it has been and thats why they are the worst defense this season.

While the Saints are not uniquely bad. I would have to state the Buffalo Bills have been uniquely bad this season, considering that D line. Just look at the first ever NFL record they broke. A DC with as much experience as Wannstedt. He was the assistant HC as well as LBer coach on the team last year. He was supposed to help George Edwards with the defense, how did that go? Oh, he got him fired so he could replace him huh?

Gregg Williams was let go. They hired spags, a d coordinator with a huge reputation this year.

Will smith was allowed at all offseason functions and Vilma wasn't healthy enough to participate. The other 2 players aren't on the team anymore. Really, it was just a distraction on that side of the ball more than missing pieces. Sean Payton being gone hurt but he wasn't heavily (or at all) involved in the defense. Gregg had a clause in his contract that he had 100% final day on all defensive matters the last 3 years.

And I'm well aware of the wide 9. Another 43 variation predicated on pressure from the front 4 (though in execution different but in goals not wildly off from a tampa 2). Plays better with the lead, let your pass rushers go full on at the qb, concede the run a bit. Problem is (much like us) the eagles had no linebackers, and further asked the secondary to play schemes not suited for their styles. Lions, had a likewise dismal back 7.

Well, reading all this.... It doesn't ring any bells for you with regards to our season?

Are we really bad? Sure thing. And it seems to snowball once things start going that way. Is "poor talent at an entire position group causing guys to play undisciplined and the entire d collapse" a unique story? Not really. Is breaking records for bad d unique? Nope. We're one of several teams doing so this season.

Not saying celebrate what we have but it is fair to keep some perspective on it. We're really running off the topic a bit here but.... Even wise coaches can run bad defenses might be a full circle take away to bring it back?

Edited by NoSaint, 30 December 2012 - 12:20 PM.


#19 FeartheLosing

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 02:47 PM

View PostNoSaint, on 30 December 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:


Are we really bad? Sure thing. And it seems to snowball once things start going that way. Is "poor talent at an entire position group causing guys to play undisciplined and the entire d collapse" a unique story? Not really. Is breaking records for bad d unique? Nope. We're one of several teams doing so this season.

Not saying celebrate what we have but it is fair to keep some perspective on it. We're really running off the topic a bit here but.... Even wise coaches can run bad defenses might be a full circle take away to bring it back?
You seem intent on missing several points.  First, those other teams have valid reasons for being as bad as they are, bad schemes, new coaches, new D line players.

The Buffalo Bills don't have those excuses, they have a very experienced DC who was with the Bills last season, albeit in a lower assistant capacity. Some very experienced players that are very familiar with a 4-3 defense. Wannstedt doesn't run an elaborate, complex shifting defense with constant player changes, stunting, blitzing. On the contrary, he ran a very vanilla base 4-3 defense for most of the year. The Bills don't have poor talent on that D line. It was supposedly one of the best ever before the season started. They also have some experienced veteran LBers that should be playing better then they are.

Like I stated earlier,  you would expect the Bills players to be well schooled in tackling, gap discipline, and overall good play in their respective positions. THAT IS BAD COACHING!

I am keeping perspective on it, Dave Wannstedt sucks and should have been relived of duties at the bye. I'll celebrate when that moron is finally fired.


Now, not unique? Which defense set a new record in the 90+ year history of the NFL for the first ever team allowing a 300 yard passer, and 300 yards rushing in a single game? :sick: