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Vontaze Burfict, Bills shoulda, coulda dept.


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#21 OldTimer1960

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:35 PM

View PostCaptain Hindsight, on 03 January 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

There were enough red flags to pass on him. The bengals took a chance and it worked, but it could have just as easily not

I concur.  The gamble that the Bills took on (I have already forgotten his name) the DL/OL that was over 400 lbs from the lowest level of competition looked like a better bet at the time.  The guy was a real athlete for someone his size and had at least shown that he would try to get in shape.  He didn't work out.  

The Burfict story is not that uncommon, other than it did seem to workout this time (that IS uncommon).

#22 Kipers Hair

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:39 PM

View PostOldTimer1960, on 03 January 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

I concur.  The gamble that the Bills took on (I have already forgotten his name) the DL/OL that was over 400 lbs from the lowest level of competition looked like a better bet at the time.  The guy was a real athlete for someone his size and had at least shown that he would try to get in shape.  He didn't work out.  

The Burfict story is not that uncommon, other than it did seem to workout this time (that IS uncommon).
Can someone tell me what the risk was?  He was undrafted and guaranteed nothing?  I mean, I guess if the risk is reputational that a player in your organization might commit a felony, I can kind of buy that, but from an asset perspective, this was zero risk.  I fail to see the harm in signing him to an unguaranteed FA contract....What, a roster spot?  Let's not forget we thought it brilliant to carry two kickers at one point...

#23 K-9

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:42 PM

View PostKipers Hair, on 03 January 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

Can someone tell me what the risk was?  He was undrafted and guaranteed nothing?  I mean, I guess if the risk is reputational that a player in your organization might commit a felony, I can kind of buy that, but from an asset perspective, this was zero risk.  I fail to see the harm in signing him to an unguaranteed FA contract....What, a roster spot?  Let's not forget we thought it brilliant to carry two kickers at one point...

No risk. Just an opportunity to sign other FAs that didn't raise so many red flags.

The Bills did nothing wrong in passing on Burfict. Nor did the 30 other teams who decided to give contracts to FAs they felt more deserving.

Marv Lewis simply did something right.

Big difference.

GO BILLS!!!

#24 Dr. Fong

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:46 PM

On the Bills we'd all wonder why he never suits up despite the need at LB or why the Bills cut him outright. Besides he's not a "character" guy, so that was never going to happen.

#25 NoSaint

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:52 PM

View PostKipers Hair, on 03 January 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:


What was the chance taken?  A draft pick?  Nope - a no strings attached free agent contract with nothing guaranteed.  No Risk...All Reward.  Let's not pat Marvin on the back for anything but giving the kid a chance...he risked nothing.  Shame on us for passing on him, especially when you consider our starting weakside linebacker was his mentor this past Summer....

That doesn't strike you as maybe his mentor didnt even buy in?

Risk? have we not seen what mentally unstable guys can do to a team? Repeatedly. There were legit reasons to question him, even if you were his biggest supporter. To pretend he is ZERO risk, or as some say, was highly likely to succeed, is an indictment of your judgement - not a positive for your evaluations. Its a poor evaluation even if he plays great down the line because it dismisses the realities of the situation - there were risks, and he had a big uphill battle. No room to debate either of those. The question is in how do you balance those.

He was a calculated risk taken by a team that, at times, has been crippled by taking these types of risks and failing.

So far, so good but lets hope it keeps up.

#26 Kipers Hair

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:52 PM

View PostK-9, on 03 January 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

No risk. Just an opportunity to sign other FAs that didn't raise so many red flags.

The Bills did nothing wrong in passing on Burfict. Nor did the 30 other teams who decided to give contracts to FAs they felt more deserving.

Marv Lewis simply did something right.

Big difference.

GO BILLS!!!
Not trying to be argumentative, but I really don't see the opportunity lost.  I just don't see where we had enough capable LB's at the start of camp to not take a flyer on someone like Burfict.  Again, we thought it prudent to go with 2 kickers at the start of the season and to go into camp with guys like Kumar Aiken, a broken Scott McKillup at MLB, (geesh), or who could forget TE prospect Fendi Onobun or the highly anticipated Jarron Gilbert???  Also, we thought it prudent to waste a draft pick and a million plus to have Teshard Jackson wearing street clothes every week only to be a walk away free agent now?  This is not even hindsight, we did nothing right to pass on him, especially when you consider Nick Barnett mentored the guy in the off season...

#27 NoSaint

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:53 PM

View PostK-9, on 03 January 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:



No risk. Just an opportunity to sign other FAs that didn't raise so many red flags.

The Bills did nothing wrong in passing on Burfict. Nor did the 30 other teams who decided to give contracts to FAs they felt more deserving.

Marv Lewis simply did something right.

Big difference.

GO BILLS!!!

Exactly.
We've had this talk in other threads- sometimes the guy that works out for someone else isn't a mistake by you.

#28 Kipers Hair

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:58 PM

View PostNoSaint, on 03 January 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

That doesn't strike you as maybe his mentor didnt even buy in?

Risk? have we not seen what mentally unstable guys can do to a team? Repeatedly. There were legit reasons to question him, even if you were his biggest supporter. To pretend he is ZERO risk, or as some say, was highly likely to succeed, is an indictment of your judgement - not a positive for your evaluations. Its a poor evaluation even if he plays great down the line because it dismisses the realities of the situation - there were risks, and he had a big uphill battle. No room to debate either of those. The question is in how do you balance those.

He was a calculated risk taken by a team that, at times, has been crippled by taking these types of risks and failing.

So far, so good but lets hope it keeps up.
No - I will try to dig it up - Barnett gave him the thumbs up.  As to a mentally unstable impact on the team - at the first sign of this you waive him...toodles...see ya.  That's it, gone at no cost to you.  Where is the harm?  Again, he might shiv a guy in the shower, but let's not get all crazy that some undrafted free agent rookie will ruin a locker room - 1st/2nd rounder - yes...free agent?  No way unless we truly are an unispired train wreck of a team lacking the slightest bit of leadership....  I really believe everyone wants to say we did the right thing and dodged a serious mine field, but I fail to see the risk when we as an organization are OK with trading for and paying for a Tevares Jackson for nothing in return.   Bolux to the notion we were smart when in fact I believe we weak and unwilling to try...

#29 atlbillsfan1975

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:59 PM

View PostKipers Hair, on 03 January 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

No - I will try to dig it up - Barnett gave him the thumbs up.  As to a mentally unstable impact on the team - at the first sign of this you waive him...toodles...see ya.  That's it, gone at no cost to you.  Where is the harm?  Again, he might shiv a guy in the shower, but let's not get all crazy that some undrafted free agent rookie will ruin a locker room - 1st/2nd rounder - yes...free agent?  No way unless we truly are an unispired train wreck of a team lacking the slightest bit of leadership....  I really believe everyone wants to say we did the right thing and dodged a serious mine field, but I fail to see the risk when we as an organization are OK with trading for and paying for a Tevares Jackson for nothing in return.   Bolux to the notion we were smart when in fact I believe we weak and unwilling to try...
Ken Whisenhunt would have given him a shot.

#30 NoSaint

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:01 PM

View PostKipers Hair, on 03 January 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:


Can someone tell me what the risk was?  He was undrafted and guaranteed nothing?  I mean, I guess if the risk is reputational that a player in your organization might commit a felony, I can kind of buy that, but from an asset perspective, this was zero risk.  I fail to see the harm in signing him to an unguaranteed FA contract....What, a roster spot?  Let's not forget we thought it brilliant to carry two kickers at one point...
Tossing around hypothetical failures beyond "he showed up fat and got cut in July.....

Him suiting up and losing a game for you by losing it on the field at a key time?

You passing on a MLB this spring because you think you have it addressed and he shows up out of shape, or fails a drug test, etc?

Hell, in a league that had a player kill himself at team facilities, kill a teammate this season, or even our own team with a hit and run with multiple teammates in the car? Dude was on a major self destructive spiral. Can you say that'd be impossible for a guy acting as terribly erratic and destructive as he was?

Sure you wouldn't lose a draft pick but there are still ways it could go wrong for the team. Sometimes, it's ok to say I'm not going to try to reform the guy.

Edited by NoSaint, 03 January 2013 - 08:03 PM.


#31 Captain Hindsight

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:03 PM

View PostKipers Hair, on 03 January 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

Can someone tell me what the risk was?  He was undrafted and guaranteed nothing?  I mean, I guess if the risk is reputational that a player in your organization might commit a felony, I can kind of buy that, but from an asset perspective, this was zero risk.  I fail to see the harm in signing him to an unguaranteed FA contract....What, a roster spot?  Let's not forget we thought it brilliant to carry two kickers at one point...
Do you know if the Bills even offered him a contract? Maybe they did. Dont forget we drafted Carder and Bradham last year, its not like we didnt attempt to upgrade the position

#32 Meathead

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:06 PM

coolest. sounds. made. up. but. it. isnt. name. ever.

#33 Kipers Hair

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:07 PM

I dont want to campaign, but to your point, the guy in KC was by all accounts an upstanding member of the team and community...to say Burfict was going to climb the bell tower isn't totally fair, but that is about the only argument that I can say...well, that would suck.  Anyway, I am hoping our new administration and coach are willing to try something...anything to win.  Perhaps a decade plus of losing makes one willing to do anything for another drink of the playoffs....

#34 NoSaint

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:09 PM

View PostKipers Hair, on 03 January 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

No - I will try to dig it up - Barnett gave him the thumbs up.  As to a mentally unstable impact on the team - at the first sign of this you waive him...toodles...see ya.  That's it, gone at no cost to you.  Where is the harm?  Again, he might shiv a guy in the shower, but let's not get all crazy that some undrafted free agent rookie will ruin a locker room - 1st/2nd rounder - yes...free agent?  No way unless we truly are an unispired train wreck of a team lacking the slightest bit of leadership....  I really believe everyone wants to say we did the right thing and dodged a serious mine field, but I fail to see the risk when we as an organization are OK with trading for and paying for a Tevares Jackson for nothing in return.   Bolux to the notion we were smart when in fact I believe we weak and unwilling to try...

You say cut him as soon as he shows trouble but ignore he was showing trouble all the way to his signing. He failed a scheduled drug test and showed up out of shape and giving head case answers about how it was everyone else fault just weeks before the draft. Why sign him when he is still actively showing trouble if your course of action is immediately cut him with any sign of trouble?

Lewis rolled the dice and won. Good for him. No need for it to shame anyone else.

Edited by NoSaint, 03 January 2013 - 08:11 PM.


#35 Dawgg

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:12 PM

Oh don't criticize the front office because they did take a flyer in that draft.

John Potter, a kickoff specialist :lol:

View PostNoSaint, on 03 January 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

You say cut him as soon as he shows trouble but ignore he was showing trouble all the way to his signing. He failed a scheduled drug test and showed up out of shape and giving head case answers about how it was everyone else fault just weeks before the draft. Why sign him when he is still actively showing trouble if your course of action is immediately cut him with any sign of trouble?

Lewis rolled the dice and won. Good for him. No need for it to shame anyone else.

Yeah, why take a chance on a LB, the weakest position on the team by a longshot, when you can take the safe route and draft a kickoff specialist in the 7th??? :lol:

#36 K-9

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:17 PM

View PostNoSaint, on 03 January 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

You say cut him as soon as he shows trouble but ignore he was showing trouble all the way to his signing. He failed a scheduled drug test and showed up out of shape and giving head case answers about how it was everyone else fault just weeks before the draft. Why sign him when he is still actively showing trouble if your course of action is immediately cut him with any sign of trouble?

Lewis rolled the dice and won. Good for him. No need for it to shame anyone else.

Not to mention losing an opportunity to sign another FA you feel better about.

There are a million things to ding the front office on, this just ain't one of them no matter how you slice it.

GO BILLS!!!

#37 NoSaint

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:19 PM

View PostDawgg, on 03 January 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

Oh don't criticize the front office because they did take a flyer in that draft.

John Potter, a kickoff specialist :lol:



Yeah, why take a chance on a LB, the weakest position on the team by a longshot, when you can take the safe route and draft a kickoff specialist in the 7th??? :lol:

Everyone has their own formulas and strategies.... Our risk/reward judgements in those late/undrafted/practice squad categories got us guys like Freddy, Stevie, Nelson, jones, Wilson (I know it was a down year), urbik, pears, chandler and so on - every team gets some talent off the trash heap... Ours tended to be of a different mental makeup than burfict. At some point it's a "good for them" for having one of their guys work out too.

It's not worth being angry over a UDFA.

Edited by NoSaint, 03 January 2013 - 08:19 PM.


#38 San Jose Bills Fan

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:34 PM

View PostCaptain Hindsight, on 03 January 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

There were enough red flags to pass on him. The bengals took a chance and it worked, but it could have just as easily not

Easy for you to say.

#39 Buffaloed in Pa

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 05:13 PM

I remember last year getting ripped for wanting to spend a sixth or seventh on Burfict. 174 tackles later with NO PROBLEMS  ..go figure. Tougher meaner harder hitting.

#40 Captain Hindsight

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 05:15 PM

OLB vs MLB

There were plenty of reasons to be wary of this guy coming out. Bills drafted two LBs last year, let it go