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A Few Scattered Thoughts About Running Quarterbacks.....


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#1 Bill from NYC

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:05 PM

1) Fitz, as awful as he can look, is actually aided big time by his ability to run. Can you imagine how bad he would be if he was less athletic?

2) Refresh my memory, but I can't really recall a running QB having won the Superbowl, unless you want to count Bradshaw, which I do not. Now, it would appear to be a matter of time.

3) Kapernick was flat out sick last night. 181 YARDS!!! This my friends is not to be ignored. Teams are going to see this (along with Wilson and RG lll) and copy it. I feel strongly about this. Meaning, Brad Smith types will come into the NFL and not be switched to wideouts.

4) The LB position, which has faded in value, will become more important as more running QBs enter the league. Someone will have to shadow these guys.

5) Most fans and sportswriters say that Montana was the best QB ever, but I have heard many defensive players say that they would rather face Montana than Steve Young. Kapernick is bigger and faster than Young, but Young had moves that would fake guys out of their socks.

6) Maybe if Vick wasn't a criminal, he could have played in a Superbowl. I guess we will never know.

7) Btw, QBs that run often will not last as long, slide rule or not, or so I think.They take beatings.

8) The above is changing the way I am approaching QBs in this draft. Can anyone advise about how well the 2013 college crop of QBs can run? If so, thanks.

9) GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by Bill from NYC, 13 January 2013 - 12:16 PM.


#2 l< j

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:24 PM

View PostBill from NYC, on 13 January 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

2) Refresh my memory, but I can't really recall a running QB having won the Superbowl, unless you want to count Bradshaw, which I do not. Now, it would appear to be a matter of time.


5) Most fans and sportswriters say that Montana was the best QB ever, but I have heard many defensive players say that they would rather face Montana than Steve Young. Kapernick is bigger and faster than Young, but Young had moves that would fake guys out of their socks.

Didn't you answer your own question here? Young had 325 yds passing and 49 on the ground against the Chargers in one of the most boring Super Bowls in my memory. Not a great running game that day (good, not great), but he was a great running QB as you say.

kj

#3 KOKBILLS

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:25 PM

View PostBill from NYC, on 13 January 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

1) Fitz, as awful as he can look, is actually aided big time by his ability to run. Can you imagine how bad he would be if he was less athletic?

2) Refresh my memory, but I can't really recall a running QB having won the Superbowl, unless you want to count Bradshaw, which I do not.

3) Kapernick was flat out sick last night. 181 YARDS!!! This my friends is not to be ignored. Teams are going to see this (along with Wilson and RG lll) and copy it. I feel strongly about this. Meaning, Brad Smith types will come into the NFL and not be switched to wideouts.

4) The LB position, which has faded in value, will become more important as more running QBs enter the league. Someone will have to shadow these guys.

5) Most fans and sportswriters say that Montana was the best QB ever, but I have heard many defensive players say that they would rather face Montana than Steve Young. Kapernick is bigger and faster than Young, but Young had moves that would fake guys out of their socks.

6) Maybe if Vick wasn't a criminal, he could have played in a Superbowl. I guess we will never know.

7) Btw, QBs that run often will not last as long, slide rule or not, or so I think.They take beatings.

8) The above is changing the way I am approaching QBs in this draft. Can anyone advise about how well the 2013 college crop of QBs can run? If so, thanks.

9) GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think EJ Manuel would be the closest thing to a Newton/Kaepernick-type in the 2013 Draft...Not saying he'll ever be that good, but from a skill-set standpoint Manuel may fit the mold a bit...Manuel ran the ball 10 times or more in 5 different games his Sr. season (102 yds vs Clemson)...Another is Logan Thomas if comes out...But IMHO Thomas is just...Not very good...He needs a TON of work and should stay in school...Collin Kline is a great running QB who actually looks uncomfortable throwing the ball at times...Zac Dysert can run it a little too...

So anyway...From a legit prospect standpoint I'd say it's Manuel, maybe Dysert, and not much more in this coming Draft if you are looking for a QB that can run it effectively... B-)

#4 Carey Bender

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:27 PM

View PostBill from NYC, on 13 January 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

2) Refresh my memory, but I can't really recall a running QB having won the Superbowl, unless you want to count Bradshaw, which I do not. Now, it would appear to be a matter of time.
Steve Young?

Edited by Carey Bender, 13 January 2013 - 12:28 PM.


#5 Captain Hindsight

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:28 PM

My biggest problem with running QBs is their longevity. Will RG3 ever be the same? Michael Vick is an injury waiting to happen everytime he runs.

You base the entire offense around one guy and he gets hurt? You got trouble

#6 MarkyMannn

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:30 PM

View PostBill from NYC, on 13 January 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:


9) GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know you got ticked off about comments about your "thoughts" after Bills games.  But you should keep them coming, your posts are good and never TBD poster critical it seems.  You got to rise above the riff raff  LOL

I think moving forward, you are screwed without a very mobile QB.  Brady excepted because the NFL will not allow anyone near him

#7 Bill from NYC

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:37 PM

View Postl< j, on 13 January 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

Didn't you answer your own question here? Young had 325 yds passing and 49 on the ground against the Chargers in one of the most boring Super Bowls in my memory. Not a great running game that day (good, not great), but he was a great running QB as you say.

kj

LOL!!! :blush:

View PostCarey Bender, on 13 January 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

Steve Young?

I could have mentioned Elway as well, but hedidn't win until he played a more conventional game.

#8 bobobonators

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:40 PM

after one of these running QB's has a game like Kaep did yesterday, we all start salivating and 3K threads are created about running QB's.

when kaep gets completely OBLITERATED in the open field one day from the blindside and he's out for the count, we'll go back to saying how they're too much of a gamble.

extremely mobile QB's like Kaep, Wilson, and RGIII are awesome to watch - you just better have a great backup ready to go at all times.

#9 Coach Tuesday

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:41 PM

So...... Tebow?

#10 Corp000085

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:45 PM

10)  We don't own this place, though we act as if we did,
It's a loan from the children of our children's kids.
The actual owners haven't even been born yet.

But we never tend the garden and rarely we pay the rent,
Some of it is broken and the rest of it is bent
Put it all on plastic and I wonder where we'll be when the bills hit.

Edited by Corp000085, 13 January 2013 - 12:45 PM.


#11 T master

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:49 PM

Although i think it's a fore gone conclusion that Marrone will take Nassib his boy with our first pick I think we have better options .

The kid from Kansas Klien was a heismen finalist, prototypical size, good if not great arm, but there are a lot of comparisons to Teabow with a better arm ?

With all of the run option plays being put in to offensive schemes now & after seeing what the 49er's QB did last night bring it on !!

I may be one of a few but i heard Skip Bayless say (not quite the way i will put it) but if a coach had balls enough to play to Teabows strengths like Myer did in college he would be a success in the NFL which i agree with.

If this kid from Kansas has a better arm & he is a runner too i think he would be a great fir in B/Lo but we can talk about it all we want but i think it will be for naught B/C i am going on record saying that our next QB will be Nassib ...

#12 jaybee

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:51 PM

View PostCaptain Hindsight, on 13 January 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

My biggest problem with running QBs is their longevity. Will RG3 ever be the same? Michael Vick is an injury waiting to happen everytime he runs.

You base the entire offense around one guy and he gets hurt? You got trouble

.....and its a big problem IMO.  While the read option is fun to watch I think it will be a short-lived fad much like the wildcat.  Guys will get killed running that thing for any length of time.

jb

#13 Captain Hindsight

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:53 PM

View PostCoach Tuesday, on 13 January 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

So...... Tebow?
He said running QBs not H-backs

#14 KOKBILLS

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:55 PM

View Postbobobonators, on 13 January 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

after one of these running QB's has a game like Kaep did yesterday, we all start salivating and 3K threads are created about running QB's.

when kaep gets completely OBLITERATED in the open field one day from the blindside and he's out for the count, we'll go back to saying how they're too much of a gamble.

extremely mobile QB's like Kaep, Wilson, and RGIII are awesome to watch - you just better have a great backup ready to go at all times.

I think Kaepernick and Cam Newton are completely different animals, albeit with similar skill-sets, than Wilson and RGIII...Newton is a HUGE dude at 6-5-245...He's a small DE size-wise...Newton is bigger than most of the open field tacklers he faces...And Kaepernick is 6-5-230...Newton and Kaepernick are rare in that they can take a bit of the pounding that would easily knock a QB like RGIII, or Wilson loopy...So even though I agree it puts your starting QB at higher risk, if it's a QB with size like those two, and they play smart, they can stay healthy... B-)

#15 RevWarRifleman

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:55 PM

Thanks Bill for posting. Yeh Kapernick doesn't even look like a rookie to me. Great tools & a heck of an arm. Ironically,  I remember last Feb during the combine, Chis Brown  (of Bills.com) was real high on this guy. He mentioned him a few times over the ensuing weeks leading into the draft. Wasn't he still on the board when we picked in round 2?

#16 KOKBILLS

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 01:02 PM

View PostT master, on 13 January 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

Although i think it's a fore gone conclusion that Marrone will take Nassib his boy with our first pick I think we have better options .

The kid from Kansas Klien was a heismen finalist, prototypical size, good if not great arm, but there are a lot of comparisons to Teabow with a better arm ?

With all of the run option plays being put in to offensive schemes now & after seeing what the 49er's QB did last night bring it on !!

I may be one of a few but i heard Skip Bayless say (not quite the way i will put it) but if a coach had balls enough to play to Teabows strengths like Myer did in college he would be a success in the NFL which i agree with.

If this kid from Kansas has a better arm & he is a runner too i think he would be a great fir in B/Lo but we can talk about it all we want but i think it will be for naught B/C i am going on record saying that our next QB will be Nassib ...

Have you actually watch Kline throw it? He needs a TON of work in that area...He's not a natural passer...He makes it look awkward at times...If you're talking about a 5th Round, or later, developmental prospect...I can see it...But I'm not a big Kline guy right now...

And I don't think it's a coincidence that just about every NFL Team disagrees with Skip Bayless where Tebow is concerned...But that's probably more about Bayless than it is about Tebow... ;)

View PostRevWarRifleman, on 13 January 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

Thanks Bill for posting. Yeh Kapernick doesn't even look like a rookie to me. Great tools & a heck of an arm. Ironically,  I remember last Feb during the combine, Chis Brown  (of Bills.com) was real high on this guy. He mentioned him a few times over the ensuing weeks leading into the draft. Wasn't he still on the board when we picked in round 2?

I remember Charles Davis on the NFL Network saying that once he got into the NFL and learned a system, Kaepernick would be the best QB from that Draft...I did not think about it much at the time...Now I can't forget it... :cry:

#17 Dan

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 01:09 PM

View PostBill from NYC, on 13 January 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:


2) Refresh my memory, but I can't really recall a running QB having won the Superbowl, unless you want to count Bradshaw, which I do not. Now, it would appear to be a matter of time.
...
There haven't been any. A pocket passer that happens to run well when forced to scramble, aka Elway, doesn't count, IMO.  In fact, I don't think any running QBs have even made it to the Superbowl (does Tarkenton count?). But Tarkenton and even Steve Young seemed to be pass first and run only when I have to QBs (albeit with some designed runs thrown in). I would argue its because running QBs have grown up using their legs to bail them out and aren't very good passers.  When it gets to the playoffs, its too easy to shut down the run game and force these guys to pass. Hence, they fall short.  Sure they win, they make great highlight reels. But, in the end, the most consistent teams win and win it all with pocket QBs.  

Now, perhaps the worm is turning, but I think it'll take a running QB who is also an excellent passing QB, to really do something.  Kap seems to be the better passer; hence, I give him a far higher chance of succeeding than RGIII for example. I suppose time will tell.  But, if you're looking to build a long term winning franchise I would still prefer to go the tried and true route as opposed to looking for that first QB that can take a read/option spread offense to the SB.

#18 JohnC

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 01:13 PM

View PostBill from NYC, on 13 January 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

1) Fitz, as awful as he can look, is actually aided big time by his ability to run. Can you imagine how bad he would be if he was less athletic?

2) Refresh my memory, but I can't really recall a running QB having won the Superbowl, unless you want to count Bradshaw, which I do not. Now, it would appear to be a matter of time.

3) Kapernick was flat out sick last night. 181 YARDS!!! This my friends is not to be ignored. Teams are going to see this (along with Wilson and RG lll) and copy it. I feel strongly about this. Meaning, Brad Smith types will come into the NFL and not be switched to wideouts.

4) The LB position, which has faded in value, will become more important as more running QBs enter the league. Someone will have to shadow these guys.

5) Most fans and sportswriters say that Montana was the best QB ever, but I have heard many defensive players say that they would rather face Montana than Steve Young. Kapernick is bigger and faster than Young, but Young had moves that would fake guys out of their socks.

6) Maybe if Vick wasn't a criminal, he could have played in a Superbowl. I guess we will never know.

7) Btw, QBs that run often will not last as long, slide rule or not, or so I think.They take beatings.

8) The above is changing the way I am approaching QBs in this draft. Can anyone advise about how well the 2013 college crop of QBs can run? If so, thanks.

9) GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had to stop watching the 49ers/Packers game because as the game went on the more infuriated I got at the thought that our countryboy GM
passed on Kaepernick and in the following year Russell Wilson for some other nickel and dime players. What is even more maddening is that he didn't need to use a first round pick on either player.

Where I disagree with you is in your belief that running qbs are the wave of the future. That is not necessarily the case. What the Redskins will assuredly have learned with the RG III saga is that thier special athletic qb will have to modify his game in order to have a sustainable career. Vick had too much street tough and ego to alter his game. And he has payed the physical price for his stubbornness. You can be very confident that the running bravada of Kaepernick, RG III, Luck and Russell Wilson type qbs will be toned down as their career advances. As each qb matures and their ability to read defenses advances they will be moving more behind the pocket than across the line of scrimmage.

When looking for a qb don't pigeon-hole yourself. There are different styles of play that can be very successful. Fouts was certainly different from Young; Peyton and Brady are different from Roethlisberger; Kramer with the Rams and Cardinals was more of a Marino type of quick release type of passer who had a lot of success. In my view Green Bay's Rodgers is the best qb in the game. He moves around a lot but for the most part it is not to run downfield so much as it is to keep the play alive so he can pass the ball.

I have come to the conclusion a long time ago, reinforced by the Fitz experience, is that you can't teach accuracy. You either have it entering the NFL or you don't. Trying to alter the throwing motion for a prospect in order to improve accuracy is an act of futility. The throwing window in the NFL is extremely small, especially compared to the wider window in college. That is why I never wanted to draft a Locker type qb, no matter how athletic or impressive character traits he or his ilk possessed.

In this year's draft there are a number of quality franchise qb prospects with a variety of body types. For me I require a qb who can move around in the pocket and who has adequate arm strength and most importantly impeccable accuracy. At this point I'm favoring Tyler Wilson but I am open to a variety of other candidates.

There is no RG III or Luck caliber of qbs in this upcoming draft. So what! That is the norm. Even when that rare event occurs odds are that your mediocre team is not in position to select that type of prospect. Newton was the first pick in the draft and so was Luck. The Redskins had to give up a boatload of picks to move a few spots up for Griffin. My point being is that you can't let "perfect be the enemy of the good." Buddy Nix never understood that you can't cripple your franchise because your ultimate desires can't be attained. When option one is closed then go to option two.  

I have stated many times that it is important that the Bills take the highest rated qb on "their" board when their pick comes up. I don't recommend that they get too cute maneuvering around in the first round when they know which qb they really want. If they get too cute with their maneuvers they can end up losing their desired player. I have been very harsh towards Nix's record, By miscalculating on his past dratt strategies with respect to a qb selection he has set this very bedraggled franchise back.

Edited by JohnC, 13 January 2013 - 02:08 PM.


#19 Kelly the Dog

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 01:19 PM

View PostKOKBILLS, on 13 January 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

I think Kaepernick and Cam Newton are completely different animals, albeit with similar skill-sets, than Wilson and RGIII...Newton is a HUGE dude at 6-5-245...He's a small DE size-wise...Newton is bigger than most of the open field tacklers he faces...And Kaepernick is 6-5-230...Newton and Kaepernick are rare in that they can take a bit of the pounding that would easily knock a QB like RGIII, or Wilson loopy...So even though I agree it puts your starting QB at higher risk, if it's a QB with size like those two, and they play smart, they can stay healthy... B-)
Thanks. That saved me from typing this.

Wilson is a smart runner though. He doesn't look for contact, he chooses to run carefully, and he's bigger than he looks (he's just not tall).

#20 BillsVet

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 01:52 PM

View PostBill from NYC, on 13 January 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

4) The LB position, which has faded in value, will become more important as more running QBs enter the league. Someone will have to shadow these guys.

I think the days of two down run stopping LB's who struggle in coverage are over with the read-option in vogue.  When you look at the ILB's who received All-Pro votes, most are not 250+.  Almost all are in that 230-240 range and aren't a liability when the QB drops to pass.  

Buffalo doesn't have a guy like that, save for maybe Barnett who's entering his 11th season.