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Pettines Defense

3-4 ish ?

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#1 3rdand12

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 10:27 AM

Read an article by Joe B today and it's a good point about line backer coaches. We have two on board.
After reading i am thinking two things. Firstly, we will be running a 3-4 base.
Secondly, we will have a true NT playing for us.
The second point is iffy but i can see that happening.
heres the link
http://wgr550.com/tw...-drive/15360762

#2 T master

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 10:51 AM

Well running a 3/4 base D wouldn't be that far fetched, every body thinks we don't have any players that fit the mold of a 3/4 but there again we do.

I checked the Pats Pro Bowl NT Wilfork is 6' 2" & 325lbs,  Dareus  being 6'3" & 331lbs has the size top play the position then if Troup proves himself to be healthy he is 6'3" & 327lbs & he was drafted to play NT so there is the possible pairing.

K.Williams - Dareus or Troup - Carrington  as your 3/4 front then we do have Barrnett which was brought in as the MLB & was very productive at that position in a 3/4 & Merriman at his natural position was a LB in a 3/4 D in San Diego & M Williams was used as a LB in Houston & was productive, of coarse he whined the entire time but for $100 mill he can shut up & play a 3/4 part time.

I for one think Merriman has more to give a team in the right situation & Pettine may be able to use him as a DE/LB in his scheme between the 2 - 3/4  4/3 sets.

I know there are more positions to fill but that will be left up to Pettine & staff I'm just saying it's not totally out of the realm of possibility to work, especially if you have a coach that can get his players motivated & he can show them that it can work & they can win if they listen to him...

Edited by T master, 25 January 2013 - 10:53 AM.


#3 3rdand12

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:04 AM

I would think we could .
As you point out , realistically, we have some players that can eat space and some who penetrate.
Agreed most of this will be on the coaching.

The article might have been a hint that Bills will be going with Mike's methods he was succesful with, during his Jets tenure and have 4 linebackers in his base.
The way you have explained it reads as if it were a natural fit for our current players ! :thumbsup:

Edited by 3rdand12, 25 January 2013 - 11:04 AM.


#4 DanInUticaTampa

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:06 AM

We are so weak at the linebacker position that going to a 3-4 base sounds scary. if we didn't have the linebackers to do a 4-3, no way do we have enough for a 3-4, even if you throw merriman in there. For a team that has spent so many offseason grabbing dlinemen, going to a 3-4 base will just pull away from that. If this coaching ensemble goes to a 3-4, and they put Kelsey at OLB because they dont have enough linebackers, I am going to lose my mind.

I am not sure what defense base they are going to run, but having two linebacker coaches is very telling.

#5 JPS

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:28 AM

Also remember the Jets were horrible at getting to the QB the last 3 years. They were so bad they brought in Mayhem.  Going back to his Baltimore days, I think the thing that makes this defense effective is being thick in the middle and having that 1 Bryce Paup style swing guy who can pressure the edge.

Personnel-wise, the Bills have questions at NT, OLB, OLB, ILB, and ILB. I'd sit on the 3 CBs they drafted high and see how good they are at press/man. They have too many needs to take another CB.

#6 hondo in seattle

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:43 AM

I'm going to take Pettine at his word when he says talk about a base defense (whether it's 3-4, 4-3 or 46) is pretty meaningless since he will use a variety of defensive alignments depending on our personnel and the offense we're playing against.

For example, here's an excerpt of an article by Mike Florio on PFT:

With 3-4 guru Mike Pettine taking over a defense that has been constructed to operate as a 4-3, the big question for the Bills has become whether Mario Williams will for the second time in three seasons be asked to play outside linebacker.

The easy answer is yes.  And no.

Pettine talked about his new job with the Bills’ official website, and he was asked whether he’ll be using a 3-4 or a 4-3.

The answer is really yes to both,” Pettine said.  “We’ll be a multiple front, multiple coverage defense.  The trademark of our defense is we’re going to be smart, tough and relentless.  How we configure it is more player-driven.  I’ve always believed that you don’t fit your players to your scheme, but you fit your scheme to your players.  What I see here is a group of explosive athletes and playmakers and we’re going to put them in a position to do just that.  We’re going to be in the configuration that gives us the best opportunity to win football games.”

http://profootballta...er-pettine-yes/

Edited by hondo in seattle, 25 January 2013 - 12:00 PM.


#7 NewEra

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:27 PM

View PostDanInUticaTampa, on 25 January 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

We are so weak at the linebacker position that going to a 3-4 base sounds scary. if we didn't have the linebackers to do a 4-3, no way do we have enough for a 3-4, even if you throw merriman in there. For a team that has spent so many offseason grabbing dlinemen, going to a 3-4 base will just pull away from that. If this coaching ensemble goes to a 3-4, and they put Kelsey at OLB because they dont have enough linebackers, I am going to lose my mind.

I am not sure what defense base they are going to run, but having two linebacker coaches is very telling.

He's going to put players in position to make plays.  Mario and Anderson have both been effective playing 3-4 OLB.  Moats and merriman can both be spot pass rushers from the position.  Barnett was most successful playing 3-4 ILB.  Bradham will find a spot.  Shepp might be able to be coached up in the right system.  We will be draft 1-3 LBs this year and possible sign a FA or 2.  No reason to lose your mind.  We have a good DC and I believe he'll get the most out of our talent.

#8 hondo in seattle

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:51 PM

Pettine deployed the 3-4 only 37% of the time.

Here's a good article on the various formations used by the Jets.

http://bleacherrepor...se-is-not-a-3-4


In another article this past June when he was still with the Jets, Pettine said he would be using a lot of 4-3 against AFC East opponents:

"For the better part of three seasons, Pettine and Ryan have relied on innovative and unconventional tactics to create havoc within the framework of their 3-4 scheme. Although the Jets will retain some of those 3-4 roots, Pettine admitted that “we’re going to be more 4-3” to generate pressure on opposing quarterbacks in 2012. The Jets have finished 18th, 7th and 17th in the league in sacks under Ryan.

Pettine went so far as to predict that the Jets may not play any 3-4 base defense in their six AFC East games that feature three teams with spread offenses.  “We might not play a snap of base defense in a division game this year,” Pettine told me. “If it’s five snaps a game, that’s probably a lot.”


http://www.nydailyne...four-man-fronts

You might say Pettine will run a 3-4 base, but it doesn't mean a lot when we'll be in base less than half the time.

It's good to have a guy who thinks creatively, unlike Wanny.

Edited by hondo in seattle, 25 January 2013 - 01:00 PM.


#9 BrooklynBills

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:23 PM

View PostDanInUticaTampa, on 25 January 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

We are so weak at the linebacker position that going to a 3-4 base sounds scary. if we didn't have the linebackers to do a 4-3, no way do we have enough for a 3-4, even if you throw merriman in there. For a team that has spent so many offseason grabbing dlinemen, going to a 3-4 base will just pull away from that. If this coaching ensemble goes to a 3-4, and they put Kelsey at OLB because they dont have enough linebackers, I am going to lose my mind.I am not sure what defense base they are going to run, but having two linebacker coaches is very telling.

Kelvin Sheppard will be a much better 34 ILB than he was with the 43.  He is naturally a bigger player and didn't gain any quickness by shedding weight to play 43 MLB this past season.

Dareus needs to play the majority of the time at DE. He was effective there as a rookie and in college.  Also, Wilfork is listed at 6'2" 325 but I have also seen him listed at 6'1" and he definitely looks much bigger than 325.  He is much more stout than Dareus.  Different players.  Carrington will play DE as well.  

Mario will probably play a hybrid role DE/LB but will mostly be asked to rush the passer. He has size to play DE in this defense though.  If Troup can contribute at NT, that's a bonus.  I think Kyle Williams' role will be reduced and he will eventually be phased out of this defense, which is fine because he is on the wrong side of 30.  Not saying they will cut him or anything but his role will be reduced.  

Mark Anderson is and always will be a situational pass rusher so if this move gets him out of the starting lineup, that is a bonus.  Barnett will move inside or get cut.  

I am almost positive we will be drafting one of the hybrid DE/LB that is slated to go in the top 10. Werner, Moore, Mingo, or Jones. Probably Mingo.  The good thing is that are younger defensive players can all play in a 34 base defense. Dareus, Carrington, and Sheppard can all play 34 positions.  Nigel Bradham could add some weight and play  ILB, but he could also try and get down to the 230 range and be LB/SS hybrid type.  The guy ran as fast as many safeties at the combine.  Gilmore can play in any system really.

I think we add young pass rusher LB/DE in this draft and an NT prospect.  That gives us Dareus anchoring the DL, another young stud LB pass rusher anchoring the LB core, and Gilmore anchoring the secondary.

Edited by BrooklynBills, 25 January 2013 - 01:35 PM.


#10 3rdand12

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:28 PM

You guys have been reading the same articles i have about this Guy.
I have a good feeling about him and his staff.
But i can only base that on what i have read . I did not watch the Jets defense.
To the critique of the pass rusher Maybin.
I think we have one in Kyle Moore as an up and coming DE. Blurb up today that Moore is on the "wanted to sign"  list.
Kelsay might be retiring anyways after these injuries. Dont screw around with a neck injury Chris !
Can see us drafting a DE and LB's early.
good posts guys :thumbsup:

#11 NoSaint

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:35 PM

View Posthondo in seattle, on 25 January 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

Pettine deployed the 3-4 only 37% of the time.

Here's a good article on the various formations used by the Jets.

http://bleacherrepor...se-is-not-a-3-4


In another article this past June when he was still with the Jets, Pettine said he would be using a lot of 4-3 against AFC East opponents:

"For the better part of three seasons, Pettine and Ryan have relied on innovative and unconventional tactics to create havoc within the framework of their 3-4 scheme. Although the Jets will retain some of those 3-4 roots, Pettine admitted that “we’re going to be more 4-3” to generate pressure on opposing quarterbacks in 2012. The Jets have finished 18th, 7th and 17th in the league in sacks under Ryan.

Pettine went so far as to predict that the Jets may not play any 3-4 base defense in their six AFC East games that feature three teams with spread offenses.  “We might not play a snap of base defense in a division game this year,” Pettine told me. “If it’s five snaps a game, that’s probably a lot.”


http://www.nydailyne...four-man-fronts

You might say Pettine will run a 3-4 base, but it doesn't mean a lot when we'll be in base less than half the time.

It's good to have a guy who thinks creatively, unlike Wanny.

Just for accuracies sake -- It does neglect that he was in a 3 man front atleast 54% of of the time, if not more (3-3 nickel being second most common and the roving style used 16%, so the 3-3 was atleast 17, presumably).

I'd call that a pretty solid base scheme. With the roving look atleast 70% of snaps are accounted for. Leaving at most 30% 4 man lines based on that breakdown

#12 missthe kgun

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 02:11 PM

View PostDanInUticaTampa, on 25 January 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

We are so weak at the linebacker position that going to a 3-4 base sounds scary. if we didn't have the linebackers to do a 4-3, no way do we have enough for a 3-4, even if you throw merriman in there. For a team that has spent so many offseason grabbing dlinemen, going to a 3-4 base will just pull away from that. If this coaching ensemble goes to a 3-4, and they put Kelsey at OLB because they dont have enough linebackers, I am going to lose my mind.

I am not sure what defense base they are going to run, but having two linebacker coaches is very telling.
Outside Linebackers in a 3-4 are not always linebackers.  Many are just undersized DE's currently we have Merriman (Showed up well when we re-signed him), Moats (Can't Cover, but can rush), M.Williams (Played well until his injury in Houston), K.Moore (Has not played there, but I can see him excelling at that OLB spot).  Shep will be better inside with another guy like Barnett paired with him, and if not Nigel the beastman Bradham is ready.

Trade K. Williams and pick up an extra 2nd and 4th maybe.  We are more set than you think we are.

#13 Aaron

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 02:17 PM

Doesn't Mario go around 300 pounds these days? If he doesn't like playing LB, why not just let him play DE even in our 3-man fronts, like Bruce did?

#14 hondo in seattle

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 02:41 PM

View PostNoSaint, on 25 January 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

Just for accuracies sake -- It does neglect that he was in a 3 man front atleast 54% of of the time, if not more (3-3 nickel being second most common and the roving style used 16%, so the 3-3 was atleast 17, presumably).

I'd call that a pretty solid base scheme. With the roving look atleast 70% of snaps are accounted for. Leaving at most 30% 4 man lines based on that breakdown

Fair enough.

But given that we're built to be a 4-3 team, I would expect Pettine's utilization of a 4 man front to be more common with the Bills (at least in Year One) than it was with the Jets.  He seems comfortable enough with the 4-3 that he won't be reluctant to use it if that's where our talent's at.

#15 Dr. Trooth

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 02:45 PM

View PostT master, on 25 January 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Well running a 3/4 base D wouldn't be that far fetched, every body thinks we don't have any players that fit the mold of a 3/4 but there again we do.

I checked the Pats Pro Bowl NT Wilfork is 6' 2" & 325lbs,  Dareus  being 6'3" & 331lbs has the size top play the position then if Troup proves himself to be healthy he is 6'3" & 327lbs & he was drafted to play NT so there is the possible pairing.

K.Williams - Dareus or Troup - Carrington  as your 3/4 front then we do have Barrnett which was brought in as the MLB & was very productive at that position in a 3/4 & Merriman at his natural position was a LB in a 3/4 D in San Diego & M Williams was used as a LB in Houston & was productive, of coarse he whined the entire time but for $100 mill he can shut up & play a 3/4 part time.

I for one think Merriman has more to give a team in the right situation & Pettine may be able to use him as a DE/LB in his scheme between the 2 - 3/4  4/3 sets.

I know there are more positions to fill but that will be left up to Pettine & staff I'm just saying it's not totally out of the realm of possibility to work, especially if you have a coach that can get his players motivated & he can show them that it can work & they can win if they listen to him...


You buying that Wilfork is 325?  Ted Washington was listed at about 325.  He was probably more like 360.  And, I'll bet Wilfork is about 350.

#16 bobobonators

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 02:49 PM

View PostDanInUticaTampa, on 25 January 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

We are so weak at the linebacker position that going to a 3-4 base sounds scary. if we didn't have the linebackers to do a 4-3, no way do we have enough for a 3-4, even if you throw merriman in there. For a team that has spent so many offseason grabbing dlinemen, going to a 3-4 base will just pull away from that. If this coaching ensemble goes to a 3-4, and they put Kelsey at OLB because they dont have enough linebackers, I am going to lose my mind.

I am not sure what defense base they are going to run, but having two linebacker coaches is very telling.

Mark Anderson and Mario Williams have both played 3-4 OLB and been extremely successful.

Williams   Dareus   Carrington - DL
Anderson /Mario/  Sheppard  /   Barnett - LB

Edited by bobobonators, 25 January 2013 - 02:50 PM.


#17 K-9

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 03:37 PM

There is nothing now nor will there ever be anything about Kyle Williams that even remotely resembles a DE in the 34, 43, or any other front you can conjure up. He's a one-gap DT and a damned good one at that. He'll be the NT in any 34 we play and he won't be asked to be a 2-gap NT while doing so. He'd be used like the NT in a Wade Phillips 34.

GO BILLS!!!

#18 FleaMoulds80

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 03:45 PM

Pettine already said that we're staying a 43 so I don't see the point of this thread.

#19 DanInUticaTampa

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 03:59 PM

View PostFleaMoulds80, on 25 January 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

Pettine already said that we're staying a 43 so I don't see the point of this thread.

I have read/heard every interview by him since hired, and I haven't seen him say that once.

#20 jcbillsfan

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:08 PM

More teams seem to be moving to 34.  It seems it is the better d to prevent the running qb's.  
I agree that the personal is close.   Carrington and Darius at the ends. Maybe devito signs to form a nice little rotation
Williams troupe and a draft pick in the middle

Mario outside
Barnett bad ham she pard inside

They are really one de/olb short.   Which could be our first round pick