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SILB or WILB?


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#1 Astrobot

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 04:53 PM

In a Mike Pettine offense, there is less differentiation between the LBs, but we've let our weakside linebacker go (Barnett)  and signed a strongside OLB (Lawson). We have a weakside OLB (Bradham) that is serviceable. Shep played ILB last year and made 80 tackles.

Are we looking for a WILB in the draft? A SILB and have Shep at WILB?

As a WILB, I like Khaseem Greene in RD2 and Sean Porter in RD3. Nico Johnson is the most versatile of the three, and would be available in RD3.

As a SILB, I love Kevin Minter but he'll likely go before our RD2. So will Manti Te'O (Bears or PGH), I think. Jonathan Bostic
would be a good possibility in RD3, and he also is versatile between ILB and OLB, and is a very good run defender.

I need to know what need we're filling.
Astro

#2 Johnny Hammersticks

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 05:32 PM

Excuse my ignorance, but in the 3-4 scheme, is there really much of a distinction between the ILB's?  I have heard that some defensive schemes rely on one of the two to be sort of a "defensive fullback" on running plays; essentially blowing up any blockers coming up the middle and allowing the other ILB to roam free.  I'm in favor of having Sheppard start at one of the ILB positions, but I honestly don't know which one he would be a better fit for.

Of the LB options you mentioned, I really like Khaseem Greene from Rutgers.  He has good sideline to sideline range, is super aggressive, and has a knack for making big plays (6 sacks & 6 FF in 2012).  Additionally, he is pretty fast and pretty solid in coverage (might be a good fit in Pettine's defense).  One downside his his "tweener" status, and he sometimes struggles to shed blocks and get to the ball carrier.  That said, I would love to see the Bills take him in round 2.

Sio Moore from Connecticut is another guy who intrigues me, but admittedly, I don't know where he would fit in either.

Could someone who knows more x's and o's defensively school me to the linebacker positions in the 3-4 defense?

#3 Aaron

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 06:11 PM

Would Greene not be a better fit at OLB? He's a decent blitzer and seems to do well with coverage responsibilities out there.

edit- also his scouting report on NFL.com indicates he lacks strength to take on blocks between the tackles and gets lost in traffic inside. I'd link it but I can't copy and paste on my phone.

Edited by Big Bad Boone, 28 March 2013 - 06:16 PM.


#4 NoSaint

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 06:35 PM

View PostJohnny Hammersticks, on 28 March 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

Excuse my ignorance, but in the 3-4 scheme, is there really much of a distinction between the ILB's?  I have heard that some defensive schemes rely on one of the two to be sort of a "defensive fullback" on running plays; essentially blowing up any blockers coming up the middle and allowing the other ILB to roam free.  I'm in favor of having Sheppard start at one of the ILB positions, but I honestly don't know which one he would be a better fit for.

Of the LB options you mentioned, I really like Khaseem Greene from Rutgers.  He has good sideline to sideline range, is super aggressive, and has a knack for making big plays (6 sacks & 6 FF in 2012).  Additionally, he is pretty fast and pretty solid in coverage (might be a good fit in Pettine's defense).  One downside his his "tweener" status, and he sometimes struggles to shed blocks and get to the ball carrier.  That said, I would love to see the Bills take him in round 2.

Sio Moore from Connecticut is another guy who intrigues me, but admittedly, I don't know where he would fit in either.

Could someone who knows more x's and o's defensively school me to the linebacker positions in the 3-4 defense?

Depends on the 34.

If one backer is primarily rushing and the other 3 tend to play more traditional roles one will "fit it up" more like your MLB, and one more like an olb in a 43 for instance

Other 34s are closer to a 5-2 with the OLBs rushing and the ilbs having closer to mirrored responsibility.

We will see what pettine runs with. As schemes get more complex though, you end up filling wider and expanded roles so even if one is usually more tied to something, both gotta do it or your not fooling anyone.

#5 vincec

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 07:04 PM

View PostAstrobot, on 28 March 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

In a Mike Pettine offense, there is less differentiation between the LBs, but we've let our weakside linebacker go (Barnett)  and signed a strongside OLB (Lawson). We have a weakside OLB (Bradham) that is serviceable. Shep played ILB last year and made 80 tackles.

Are we looking for a WILB in the draft? A SILB and have Shep at WILB?

As a WILB, I like Khaseem Greene in RD2 and Sean Porter in RD3. Nico Johnson is the most versatile of the three, and would be available in RD3.

As a SILB, I love Kevin Minter but he'll likely go before our RD2. So will Manti Te'O (Bears or PGH), I think. Jonathan Bostic
would be a good possibility in RD3, and he also is versatile between ILB and OLB, and is a very good run defender.

I need to know what need we're filling.
Astro
3-4 OLBs need to be able to rush the passer.  Bradham hasn't shown this ability.  I could see him as the WILB with Sheppard as the SILB and drafting a WOLB.

Edited by vincec, 28 March 2013 - 07:05 PM.


#6 NoName

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 07:17 PM

Let's not forget about Moats. He fits an OLB in 3-4 best and was effective as a pass rusher in that d.

I don't see the bills drafting a LB high anyway.  Too many needs, invested too much on Defense to draft high on Defense.

I see a WR in 1st rd
I see a QB in 2nd rd
I see a G in 3rd rd
I see a TE in 4th rd

This draft will heavy on the offensive side of the ball.

#7 Kelly the Dog

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 07:23 PM

It's hard to say, but I very much doubt we are in a regular 3-4 on 20-25% of the plays. If you're looking for the best players in the draft for the Bills to look at, look at guys that can play in both defenses, and can do a little bit of everything good, rather than just be great pass rushers or run stuffers or coverage guys, especially in the top three rounds. Pettine wants and loves guys like Lawson, who, when on the field, you don't know what defense is going to line up, a 4-3, a 3-4, a 46, etc.

#8 gonzo1105

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 07:45 PM

Bradham will move inside in the 3-4. So your looking at Lawson at SOLB, Sheppard SILB, Bradham WILB, and Moats right now at WOLB.

#9 NoSaint

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 07:49 PM

View Postgonzo1105, on 28 March 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

Bradham will move inside in the 3-4. So your looking at Lawson at SOLB, Sheppard SILB, Bradham WILB, and Moats right now at WOLB.

And Anderson?

#10 jboyst62

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 07:51 PM

http://forums.twobil...efense/  please read my posts on the defense and linebackers in this, it will answer a lot of questions

View PostJohnny Hammersticks, on 28 March 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

Excuse my ignorance, but in the 3-4 scheme, is there really much of a distinction between the ILB's?
Daryl Talley would disagree.  Talley would not be the guy to plug the whole, the anchor, the run stuffer.  He was an all around ILB that would be Mike in todays 34.  Then again those defenses we had in the 90's are hard to explain while understanding the way they are commonly run today.

View PostAstrobot, on 28 March 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

In a Mike Pettine offense, there is less differentiation between the LBs, but we've let our weakside linebacker go (Barnett)  and signed a strongside OLB (Lawson). We have a weakside OLB (Bradham) that is serviceable. Shep played ILB last year and made 80 tackles.

Are we looking for a WILB in the draft? A SILB and have Shep at WILB?

As a WILB, I like Khaseem Greene in RD2 and Sean Porter in RD3. Nico Johnson is the most versatile of the three, and would be available in RD3.

As a SILB, I love Kevin Minter but he'll likely go before our RD2. So will Manti Te'O (Bears or PGH), I think. Jonathan Bostic
would be a good possibility in RD3, and he also is versatile between ILB and OLB, and is a very good run defender.

I need to know what need we're filling.
Astro
I think Manny Lawson will play a lot more strong side then weak side.  I believe putting him behind Mario on a 34 scheme is the best way to utilize the qualities of both, therefore we need Will far more.  I want the best pass defending LB in the draft that can make up with smarts, angles and ball play for size and speed; although by size I mean 200 lbs. vs. being 250 lbs. - height will be important because he will be on TE's like glue.  That with a system of running 3 safeties will be great.

Lawson as a strong side LB leaves too much at risk for other factors and most importantly he could fill a more important role at SLB where he can tackle - his sure thing.  I have no idea where this idea that he could pass cover came from - by all accouts I ahve read, and PFF - he cannot.

#11 Kelly the Dog

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 07:54 PM

View Postjboyst62, on 28 March 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

http://forums.twobil...efense/  please read my posts on the defense and linebackers in this, it will answer a lot of questions


Daryl Talley would disagree.  Talley would not be the guy to plug the whole, the anchor, the run stuffer.  He was an all around ILB that would be Mike in todays 34.  Then again those defenses we had in the 90's are hard to explain while understanding the way they are commonly run today.


I think Manny Lawson will play a lot more strong side then weak side.  I believe putting him behind Mario on a 34 scheme is the best way to utilize the qualities of both, therefore we need Will far more.  I want the best pass defending LB in the draft that can make up with smarts, angles and ball play for size and speed; although by size I mean 200 lbs. vs. being 250 lbs. - height will be important because he will be on TE's like glue.  That with a system of running 3 safeties will be great.

Lawson as a strong side LB leaves too much at risk for other factors and most importantly he could fill a more important role at SLB where he can tackle - his sure thing.  I have no idea where this idea that he could pass cover came from - by all accouts I ahve read, and PFF - he cannot.
From what I have read (but have not seen either way), Lawson had a good reputation for coverage when he was on the 49ers, and struggled somewhat on the Bengals. That could be the difference. A lot of people think he may have not been in the best defense for him at Cinci, which could account for it.

#12 KeisterHollow

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 07:55 PM

I'm wondering where Mario fits in... I know in Houston he played near half a season as OLB.  If we're planning on using him as an OLB, and we just signed Lawson to fill that other OLB spot, then chances are we're not looking to add a pass rushing OLB early in this draft - two players I'm particularly high on would fill that role: Ansah and Jordan.  I'm sure Pettine isn't going to talk about who he plans on putting where until after the draft, so it truly wait and see.

In response to a post that suggested we're going offense all the way till the 5th round - I'd be truly surprised if that were to happen.  There are many more impressive defenders early in this draft than offensive players, so I suspect we come out of the first 4 rounds with a QB, WR, and either a LB or CB, or both.

#13 NoSaint

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 07:58 PM

View PostKeisterHollow, on 28 March 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

I'm wondering where Mario fits in... I know in Houston he played near half a season as OLB.  If we're planning on using him as an OLB, and we just signed Lawson to fill that other OLB spot, then chances are we're not looking to add a pass rushing OLB early in this draft

Don't forget Anderson who likely is not playing end, and will be rushing. Mario can likely play both DE and OLB in most 34 schemes

#14 kickedface

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 08:00 PM

i like that the defense seems to be moving players around like that every couple of years. it should certainly help the problem with the d to have the front 7 play in a different spot every season. i am so sick of this mess.

#15 gonzo1105

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 08:07 PM

View PostNoSaint, on 28 March 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

And Anderson?

I would assume that Anderson would play the WOLB spot. I kind of forgot about him. I actually see K.Williams and Dareus flipping now. Dareus would be the NT and Williams and Williams would play the DE's. The LB crew would be Lawson,Sheppard,Bradham, Moats/Anderson.

#16 vincec

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 08:12 PM

View Postgonzo1105, on 28 March 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

Bradham will move inside in the 3-4. So your looking at Lawson at SOLB, Sheppard SILB, Bradham WILB, and Moats right now at WOLB.
Also Anderson as possible WOLB.  I see him playing more than Moats.

View Postgonzo1105, on 28 March 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

I would assume that Anderson would play the WOLB spot. I kind of forgot about him. I actually see K.Williams and Dareus flipping now. Dareus would be the NT and Williams and Williams would play the DE's. The LB crew would be Lawson,Sheppard,Bradham, Moats/Anderson.
I don't think Williams can play on an exposed end.  Frankly, I'm not sure that Dareus can either but I think he has a better shot.  It will be a challenge for Pettine to find a way to use Williams productively in a 3-4 IMO, but that's what he gets paid for.

Edited by vincec, 28 March 2013 - 08:13 PM.


#17 Astrobot

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 01:01 PM

View PostNoName, on 28 March 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

Let's not forget about Moats. He fits an OLB in 3-4 best and was effective as a pass rusher in that d.

I don't see the bills drafting a LB high anyway.  Too many needs, invested too much on Defense to draft high on Defense.

I see a WR in 1st rd
I see a QB in 2nd rd
I see a G in 3rd rd
I see a TE in 4th rd

This draft will heavy on the offensive side of the ball.
If I run with that order, you get:
  • Cordarrelle Patterson   WRF or Tavon Austin WRS   (Value)
  • E.J. Manuel QB or Tyler Wilson QB (Value)
  • Brian Winters OG (Reach)
  • Vance McDonald TE or Gavin Escobar TE (Value)

I'd be happy with that draft.

If you take TE before OG, it'd be
  • Cordarrelle Patterson   WRF or Tavon Austin WRS   (Value)
  • E.J. Manuel QB or Tyler Wilson QB (Value)
  • Jordan Reed TE or Travis Kelce TE in RD3
  • JC Tretter OG

I'd be ecstatic with that draft!

Edited by Astrobot, 29 March 2013 - 01:02 PM.


#18 Kelly the Dog

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 01:04 PM

View PostAstrobot, on 29 March 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

If I run with that order, you get:
  • Cordarrelle Patterson   WRF or Tavon Austin WRS   (Value)

  • E.J. Manuel QB or Tyler Wilson QB (Value)

  • Brian Winters OG (Reach)

  • Vance McDonald TE or Gavin Escobar TE (Value)
I'd be happy with that draft.

If you take TE before OG, it'd be
  • Cordarrelle Patterson   WRF or Tavon Austin WRS   (Value)

  • E.J. Manuel QB or Tyler Wilson QB (Value)

  • Jordan Reed TE or Travis Kelce TE in RD3

  • JC Tretter OG
I'd be ecstatic with that draft!
Agreed. I would be ecstatic with either WR if we got Manuel in the 2nd and then either TE in the 3rd. Can we just do that now please?

#19 Buffaloed in Pa

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 01:07 PM

View PostAstrobot, on 28 March 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

In a Mike Pettine offense, there is less differentiation between the LBs, but we've let our weakside linebacker go (Barnett)  and signed a strongside OLB (Lawson). We have a weakside OLB (Bradham) that is serviceable. Shep played ILB last year and made 80 tackles.

Are we looking for a WILB in the draft? A SILB and have Shep at WILB?

As a WILB, I like Khaseem Greene in RD2 and Sean Porter in RD3. Nico Johnson is the most versatile of the three, and would be available in RD3.

As a SILB, I love Kevin Minter but he'll likely go before our RD2. So will Manti Te'O (Bears or PGH), I think. Jonathan Bostic
would be a good possibility in RD3, and he also is versatile between ILB and OLB, and is a very good run defender.

I need to know what need we're filling.
Astro
I like Greene.One man wrecking team vs Nassib this year. He would be a great pick in rd2. I also like the Collins kid.

#20 Astrobot

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 01:14 PM

View PostKelly the Dog, on 29 March 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

Agreed. I would be ecstatic with either WR if we got Manuel in the 2nd and then either TE in the 3rd. Can we just do that now please?

And if I take WR in RD1, I'm going against the grain and taking Tavon Austin over Patterson, then EJ Manuel over Wilson. Then I'd take my taller WR in RD5, EJ Manuel's WR Rodney Smith, 6'5" 219 lbs.

View PostBuffaloed in Pa, on 29 March 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

I like Greene.One man wrecking team vs Nassib this year. He would be a great pick in rd2. I also like the Collins kid.
Greene led all LB's in "impact tackles" (tackles for 0-2 yd gains) with 27, beating all LBs almost by factor of 2. Reddick #2 with 17, JJones/Brown both with 15.