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Poll: Grade Draft, EJ Manuel Question


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Poll: Draft/QB (197 member(s) have cast votes)

Grade the Bills draft

  1. A (68 votes [34.52%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 34.52%

  2. B (107 votes [54.31%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 54.31%

  3. C (17 votes [8.63%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.63%

  4. D (4 votes [2.03%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.03%

  5. F (1 votes [0.51%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 0.51%

Will EJ Manuel be starting for the Bills in 5 years?

  1. Yes (174 votes [88.32%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 88.32%

  2. No (23 votes [11.68%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 11.68%

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#1 The Voice of Truth

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 04:37 PM

Kiper blasted our draft; bastard.  Fans seem more excited than ever about this draft and that includes me.  I'm thrilled with the Manuel pick.  Anyway, take the poll if you want.

Edited by The Voice of Truth, 29 April 2013 - 04:37 PM.


#2 xsoldier54

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 04:58 PM

This was a good draft.   Completely revamped the WR corps.   Added speed and toughness on defense.  New kicker, TE who can stretch the field like a WR.   Filled lots of needs and made the team much faster.

#3 Edwards' Arm

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 05:00 PM

I gave the Bills' draft a D. Below is my reasoning.

1. E.J. Manuel. Like Losman, Manuel has great physical tools. Also like Losman, Manuel did nothing in college to demonstrate he could handle the mental complexity associated with NFL offenses. On the contrary: even though his college offense was very simple, he still struggled with pocket awareness. If he doesn't have the bandwidth to handle a simple offense + pocket awareness, how is he supposed to handle the NFL?

This pick hurts us twice. First, the pick itself has been squandered. Secondly and more importantly, the Bills are very unlikely to do much of anything at the QB position as long as they're deluding themselves into thinking Manuel is the answer. They even passed on Nassib and Barkley in the third!

2a. Robert Woods. A good pick.

2b. Kiko Alonso. The Bills chose him significantly higher than where the consensus had him slotted. This is not the first time the Bills have taken a player much earlier than he was slotted. Previous examples include Donte Whitner, Torrell Troup, and T.J. Graham.

3. Marquise Goodwin, WR. I have nothing against Goodwin as a player. But the Bills had already addressed the WR position with Woods; plus they had Johnson and Easley on the roster. Spiller and Chandler can also be used as receiving threats. Maybe "luxury pick" is too strong a phrase to describe this selection. But going into the third round, the Bills had a decent stock of talent at WR, and nothing at all at QB. That being the case, why not take Barkley? Even if there's a 70% chance his arm will never recover, a 20 - 30% chance of getting a franchise QB is well worth the use of a third round pick!

#4 Alphadawg7

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 05:02 PM

View Postxsoldier54, on 29 April 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

This was a good draft.   Completely revamped the WR corps.   Added speed and toughness on defense.  New kicker, TE who can stretch the field like a WR.   Filled lots of needs and made the team much faster.

Curious as to why you gave the grade of B instead of A based on your comments.  What kept you from giving it an A considering you seem very high on the draft?

#5 stevestojan

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 05:04 PM

I had it as a solid C+ until the UDFA signings. Great job there. I still contend EJ would have been there at 46, and we could have just traded 16 for a second and a 5th at least, but we're not winning the Super Bowl this year so why not get the guy with the most upside.

B, and Yes.

#6 DrDareustein

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 05:07 PM

Without making any predictions about any specific players, I like the strategy and plan the Bills pulled off. Went in with 6 picks, walked out with 8. QB, WR, LB, WR, DB, DB, K, TE. They didnt get cute, quite the opposite actually. Able to get their guy, and gain picks. Addressed our biggest needs, no real head-scratchers. For this, I give them an A.

That being said, I'm personally psyched to see what they do with Manuel and all these weapons. And really hoping the D is as aggressive and nasty as it can be! I voted YEs that Manuel will be our QB in 5 years because I hope it all works for the best!

#7 Ramius

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 05:10 PM

View PostEdwards, on 29 April 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

I gave the Bills' draft a D. Below is my reasoning.

1. E.J. Manuel. Like Losman, Manuel has great physical tools. Also like Losman, Manuel did nothing in college to demonstrate he could handle the mental complexity associated with NFL offenses. On the contrary: even though his college offense was very simple, he still struggled with pocket awareness. If he doesn't have the bandwidth to handle a simple offense + pocket awareness, how is he supposed to handle the NFL?

This pick hurts us twice. First, the pick itself has been squandered. Secondly and more importantly, the Bills are very unlikely to do much of anything at the QB position as long as they're deluding themselves into thinking Manuel is the answer. They even passed on Nassib and Barkley in the third!


Regardless of if he pans out or not, and regardless of how many times you spew your nonsense, EJ is nothing like Losman. FSU's offense was not simple, nor was it "simplified" for EJ. This lie has perpetuated itself repeatedly on this site and others.

#8 Green Lightning

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 05:11 PM

Gave'em an A.  Why the Hell not?  We won't know for a bit anyway.  Go Bills!

#9 Alphadawg7

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 05:15 PM

View PostEdwards, on 29 April 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

I gave the Bills' draft a D. Below is my reasoning.

1. E.J. Manuel. Like Losman, Manuel has great physical tools. Also like Losman, Manuel did nothing in college to demonstrate he could handle the mental complexity associated with NFL offenses. On the contrary: even though his college offense was very simple, he still struggled with pocket awareness. If he doesn't have the bandwidth to handle a simple offense + pocket awareness, how is he supposed to handle the NFL?

This pick hurts us twice. First, the pick itself has been squandered. Secondly and more importantly, the Bills are very unlikely to do much of anything at the QB position as long as they're deluding themselves into thinking Manuel is the answer. They even passed on Nassib and Barkley in the third!

2a. Robert Woods. A good pick.

2b. Kiko Alonso. The Bills chose him significantly higher than where the consensus had him slotted. This is not the first time the Bills have taken a player much earlier than he was slotted. Previous examples include Donte Whitner, Torrell Troup, and T.J. Graham.

3. Marquise Goodwin, WR. I have nothing against Goodwin as a player. But the Bills had already addressed the WR position with Woods; plus they had Johnson and Easley on the roster. Spiller and Chandler can also be used as receiving threats. Maybe "luxury pick" is too strong a phrase to describe this selection. But going into the third round, the Bills had a decent stock of talent at WR, and nothing at all at QB. That being the case, why not take Barkley? Even if there's a 70% chance his arm will never recover, a 20 - 30% chance of getting a franchise QB is well worth the use of a third round pick!

I whole heartedly disagree with every one of your points.  Everything I have heard about Manuel is exact opposite of what you are implying in terms of his intelligence and mental aptitude.  I dont know him personally, so I can not say one way or the other, so I rely on those who have done their due diligence on it, and they disagree with you.  I think your fundamental flaw is you want to translate what you interpret on the field with no regard to the system he was in which many feel held him back.  Does he need work in areas, of course, ALL of these QB's do, but our coach, scouts and GM were all unanimous in feeling he was further along on the mental aspects of the game and fundamental understanding of the game.

For you or anyone to call the pick "squandered" or a slam dunk is ludicrous, none of these kids even played a snap of camp yet.  And, Nassib and Barkley fell all the way to the 4th round, so seems to me none of the other teams were sold on their ability either, including Nassibs own coaching staff.  But somehow you know better on Nassib than Marrone and Hackett?

Kiko Alonso was NOT a reach...talent wise he should have been a guy projected to go first or 2nd round.  His draft grading was lower ONLY because of off field concerns early at Oregon.  So, where he was slated to go is irrelevant...I am so sick of the "he was supposed to go later" garbage...SAYS WHO?  Kiper?  McShay?  95% + of the picks they project are wrong, literally.  His top 20 players hit at a major losing rate.  He knows nothing...its a private opinion of his that is rooted in some tape.  If he had any skill, or any mocker for that matter, had any skill of evaluating talent they would be highly paid GM's of winning franchises.  Instead, he is literally (along with McShay and other mockers) a complete joke inside the NFL circles.

If it was NOT for these lame mockers who literally get paid to be WRONG, you would have no idea of where any of these players should be ranked.  So you are basing whether we reached or not on some idiots projections that are always wrong.

FYI:  Kiper last year gave the worst grade to the Seahawks...one year later, it was easily the best draft of any team last year and helped them almost reached the SB as they got 3 impact starters, including a QB.  

Goodwin is also far from a "luxury" pick.  We had ONE proven WR on the team to start with.  There is no guarantee Woods will be good despite being highly touted.  And he is a guy who can be a big factor for us even if Woods works out as they are different players where Goodwin can take the top off the D.  They wanted more players like this, so how is it a luxury pick?  You want to argue Spiller was, then fine, that could be a we had 2 proven RB's at the time (although I dont see it as a luxury pick since Gailey wanted a different style of RB that was not currently on the roster at that time).  But going into the draft we had just Stevie, and we need more playmakers and they wanted explosive guys.  

So again, no disrespect, but I whole heartedly disagree with your assessment.

Edited by Alphadawg7, 29 April 2013 - 05:19 PM.


#10 pimp 2

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 05:21 PM

View PostEdwards, on 29 April 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

I gave the Bills' draft a D. Below is my reasoning.

1. E.J. Manuel. Like Losman, Manuel has great physical tools. Also like Losman, Manuel did nothing in college to demonstrate he could handle the mental complexity associated with NFL offenses. On the contrary: even though his college offense was very simple, he still struggled with pocket awareness. If he doesn't have the bandwidth to handle a simple offense + pocket awareness, how is he supposed to handle the NFL?

This pick hurts us twice. First, the pick itself has been squandered. Secondly and more importantly, the Bills are very unlikely to do much of anything at the QB position as long as they're deluding themselves into thinking Manuel is the answer. They even passed on Nassib and Barkley in the third!

2a. Robert Woods. A good pick.

2b. Kiko Alonso. The Bills chose him significantly higher than where the consensus had him slotted. This is not the first time the Bills have taken a player much earlier than he was slotted. Previous examples include Donte Whitner, Torrell Troup, and T.J. Graham.

3. Marquise Goodwin, WR. I have nothing against Goodwin as a player. But the Bills had already addressed the WR position with Woods; plus they had Johnson and Easley on the roster. Spiller and Chandler can also be used as receiving threats. Maybe "luxury pick" is too strong a phrase to describe this selection. But going into the third round, the Bills had a decent stock of talent at WR, and nothing at all at QB. That being the case, why not take Barkley? Even if there's a 70% chance his arm will never recover, a 20 - 30% chance of getting a franchise QB is well worth the use of a third round pick!

You do know that FSU plays a pro style offense, right?

How many college QB's display or are exposed to pro style defense and they're complexities while ...still in college?

FSU's offense is very complex, as a matter of fact he showed his flexibility and intelligence when the OC added different scheme's read-option formations mid season. He's accustom to hard coaching and a student of the game. I see absolutely NO CORRELATION between EJ and JP...Let's Go Bills!!!

View PostRamius, on 29 April 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Regardless of if he pans out or not, and regardless of how many times you spew your nonsense, EJ is nothing like Losman. FSU's offense was not simple, nor was it "simplified" for EJ. This lie has perpetuated itself repeatedly on this site and others.

^^^^^^^^^^^ This !!!! Thank you!!!!

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#11 stevestojan

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 05:23 PM

wonderlic of 28. same as Peyton.

for what it's worth. which is very little.

#12 Lurker

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 05:27 PM

View PostRamius, on 29 April 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Regardless of if he pans out or not, and regardless of how many times you spew your nonsense, EJ is nothing like Losman. FSU's offense was not simple, nor was it "simplified" for EJ. This lie has perpetuated itself repeatedly on this site and others.
Ramius, you obviously have watched FSU and EJ a lot.  

What do you make of this piece (and why do so many 'Noles fans seem to be down on Manuel)?

http://www.tomahawkn...l-florida-state

#13 over 20 years of fanhood

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 05:34 PM

View PostEdwards, on 29 April 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

I gave the Bills' draft a D. Below is my reasoning.

1. E.J. Manuel. Like Losman, Manuel has great physical tools. Also like Losman, Manuel did nothing in college to demonstrate he could handle the mental complexity associated with NFL offenses. On the contrary: even though his college offense was very simple, he still struggled with pocket awareness. If he doesn't have the bandwidth to handle a simple offense + pocket awareness, how is he supposed to handle the NFL?

This pick hurts us twice. First, the pick itself has been squandered. Secondly and more importantly, the Bills are very unlikely to do much of anything at the QB position as long as they're deluding themselves into thinking Manuel is the answer. They even passed on Nassib and Barkley in the third!

2a. Robert Woods. A good pick.

2b. Kiko Alonso. The Bills chose him significantly higher than where the consensus had him slotted. This is not the first time the Bills have taken a player much earlier than he was slotted. Previous examples include Donte Whitner, Torrell Troup, and T.J. Graham.

3. Marquise Goodwin, WR. I have nothing against Goodwin as a player. But the Bills had already addressed the WR position with Woods; plus they had Johnson and Easley on the roster. Spiller and Chandler can also be used as receiving threats. Maybe "luxury pick" is too strong a phrase to describe this selection. But going into the third round, the Bills had a decent stock of talent at WR, and nothing at all at QB. That being the case, why not take Barkley? Even if there's a 70% chance his arm will never recover, a 20 - 30% chance of getting a franchise QB is well worth the use of a third round pick!

Where is this mental bandwidth stuff coming from.  His wonderlic, which is one example of a combine metric was reported as a 28.  Other current starting qb's with 28s drew brees, Peyton manning, russell wilson. Also beaten were Flacco 27, big Ben 25, and RG3..


All the scouting reports cited him as a smart kid, he made ACC all academic team twice and took masters level courses his senior year because he had completed his bachelors.  

So I am just curious what substantiated this knowledge you possess about his lack of mental bandwidth?

His resume is stellar in comparison to losmans coming in.  

If this kid fails i could see it being due to accuracy issues or a bad fitting offense, or maybe ball security... It won't be his intelligence sorry if this busted some myth you've constructed in YOUR mind.

Edited by over 20 years of fanhood, 29 April 2013 - 05:37 PM.


#14 947

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 05:38 PM

Losman was a moron & a cocky A-hole, in addition to being from a dumbed-down offense. His only asset was a monster arm. I really doubt he'd be drafted before round 4 in today's NFL.

EJ is very smart, team-oriented, from a pro-style offense, oh- and also has a monster arm. Not really any comparison.

#15 Mr. WEO

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 05:44 PM

View PostLurker, on 29 April 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Ramius, you obviously have watched FSU and EJ a lot.  

What do you make of this piece (and why do so many 'Noles fans seem to be down on Manuel)?

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#16 Edwards' Arm

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 05:45 PM

View PostLurker, on 29 April 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Ramius, you obviously have watched FSU and EJ a lot.  

What do you make of this piece (and why do so many 'Noles fans seem to be down on Manuel)?

http://www.tomahawkn...l-florida-state

Excellent read. For those who haven't yet taken the time to read it, below is a quote:

***************
He really doesn't have a good feel for the game. Manuel is very slow to recognize and react on the field. He doesn't recognize blitzes well, doesn't sense pressure (making it too late to use his athleticism to avoid it), is often slow to get through his reads, and struggles to read coverage in general, both pre and post-snap.

FSU had to dumb down its offense a lot for Manuel, as Alan and I have noted many times when people claimed it was too complicated. The reason for this, IMO, is because of his lack of mental ability on the field. But don't take my word for it. Here is Mike Mayock, head scout for the NFL Network:
____________
. . . .
    "And as for me, E.J. Manuel didn't get asked to do a lot [at Florida State], and I don't think you can ding the kid. A lot of people say, ‘Oh, can he read defenses?' But I don't think they asked him to do it a lot. So we don't really know that.
___________

[Emphasis mine] Mayock says that FSU didn't ask Manuel to do much, but from my perspective, the reason behind this is important: he never demonstrated that he could handle more.

Manuel also struggles to throw with anticipation. The next time he bangs the post route before the receiver breaks open will be the first. He is very much a rudimentary "see it, throw it" player. That doesn't work well in the NFL. In the league, certain routes demand that the ball comes out before the receiver is open or out of his break.
***************

#17 Ramius

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 06:36 PM

View PostLurker, on 29 April 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Ramius, you obviously have watched FSU and EJ a lot.  

What do you make of this piece (and why do so many 'Noles fans seem to be down on Manuel)?

http://www.tomahawkn...l-florida-state

I think one of the biggest reasons Noles fans were down on EJ is because he came in with such fanfare and he was a highly touted 5-star recruit. He played brilliantly at times, but due to his inconsistency, he never "lived up" to the extremely lofty expectations set upon him by the fanbase. He played well, but the expectations were very high for him.  It's similar to a few years ago around here when Lynch would rush for 1000 and people would trash him, but would hold Freddie on high for rushing for those same 1000 yards.

Just as a note: Remember that Tomahawk nation (the source of the article) is basically a fan blog site, as its part of the SB Nation network. They're not unbiased. Similar to buffalo rumblings and the bills. I like the site, but they're not always completely objective. They tended to treat EJ rather harshly here, along with many other FSU sports figures. I've got quite a few friends and co-workers that won't read tomahawk nation because of their slants on pieces. For comparison's sake, Warchant.com has connections with the school and team, and its writers are often on local media. Tomahawk nation isn't.

To address some of the points in the article: Yes he is inconsistent. It was frustrating because his talent is world class. If he was more consistent, he'd have been a consensus top-5 pick. He's going to be frustrating at times, and he's going to make mistakes, or bonehead plays. But he's got a tremendous upside that he has shown at times. And here at FSU, he would make plays that make your eyes pop out of your head, or make throws that wonder how in the hell he put the ball exactly where it needed to be in a tiny window. Like the 2011 Bowl game vs ND and the 2012 Clemson game for example. He was truly brilliant in those games.

As for his mental make-up, i don't believe he's mentally soft. But i do believe he holds himself to an extremely high standard and expects a lot of himself(due to his intelligence and physical skills), and he's going to personally shoulder the load when things go wrong. He never "pouted" per say on the sidelines. But there were a handful of times when someone else make a clear mistake on the offense, and he took all the blame. While he's not the "screw-you" type as they state, he seems to be more of the "i'm the QB, so the buck stops at me" type. Their leadership comment is baffling, because we heard a lot about how good of a leader he was and how the offense looked up to him. Here's an article from the beginning of last season: http://espn.go.com/c...-forging-legacy

As for the simplified offense, all we ever hear down here is how complicated Jimbo's offense is, and he hates putting anyone in there on offense that doesn't understand the playbook and how the offense is run. He's benched superior players for plays/drives for not understanding and executing their particular assignments. This "simplified, dumbed down offense" crap only started to come out after the season was over, and not from any of the actual sports media types.

There were issues between Jimbo and EJ in some games. Jimbo tends to go into a shell and play super conservative when leading in the second half. This directly cost us the NC St. game. When you go run-run-pass every series, that's not putting your QB in a position to succeed. EJ also didn't take too well to Jimbo's "yell in your face" coaching technique. Again, he didn't pout or anything, but different players respond to different coaching tactics, and Jimbo struggles to adapt himself to his players at times. He also expects a lot, and on more than 1 occasion, when a play that he's called wasn't run properly or had a bad result (for whatever reason) he's completely tossed it from a playbook for a game, or multiple games, even if the play would have worked again.

That's about all i can say. EJ was a good QB here who played with inconsistency. From watching him, his flaws are the "coachable" types, like making sure your feet are set when you throw or you have proper footwork in the pocket. But he has shown flashes of absolute brilliance. If he keeps developing, he's got the ability to be scary good. And if he doesn't develop to the level most of us hope (excluding holcombs arm, who's already rooting for him to fail), then we spend a high pick on another QB in a couple of years and try again.

Edited by Ramius, 29 April 2013 - 06:40 PM.


#18 Edwards' Arm

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 07:13 PM

View Postover 20 years of fanhood, on 29 April 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

Where is this mental bandwidth stuff coming from.  His wonderlic, which is one example of a combine metric was reported as a 28.  Other current starting qb's with 28s drew brees, Peyton manning, russell wilson. Also beaten were Flacco 27, big Ben 25, and RG3..


All the scouting reports cited him as a smart kid, he made ACC all academic team twice and took masters level courses his senior year because he had completed his bachelors.  

So I am just curious what substantiated this knowledge you possess about his lack of mental bandwidth?

His resume is stellar in comparison to losmans coming in.  

If this kid fails i could see it being due to accuracy issues or a bad fitting offense, or maybe ball security... It won't be his intelligence sorry if this busted some myth you've constructed in YOUR mind.

> So I am just curious what substantiated this knowledge you possess about his lack of mental bandwidth?

From CBS Sports:
" Has a tendency to stare down primary target. Average accuracy in the pocket and will get 'happy feet' when pressured."

From Walter Football:

Weaknesses
  • Not a natural passer
  • Decision-making
  • Field vision
  • Struggles to work through progressions
From NFL.com

*********
NFL Comparison: Blaine Gabbert

. . . Manuel has the velocity and mobility teams look for in a project quarterback.
*********

If the only criticism of Manuel was coming from biased FSU sites, I wouldn't be concerned. But a number of credible sources have raised serious concerns about his ability to handle the mental aspects of the game. Maybe those concerns are misplaced. Maybe he'll become Aaron Rodgers, except with better physical tools. But I'm not counting on it. If multiple credible sources raise concerns like the above about a QB, if he gets the "project QB" label slapped on him, it's usually a sign he's destined to be a bust. Peyton Manning was labeled "polished, ready to play." Ryan Leaf was considered more of a "project" who supposedly had higher "upside" due to his greater physical gifts. Not just Ryan Leaf, but every single last first round QB who was labeled a "project" went on to become a bust. (At least, as far as I remember.)

Edited by Edwards' Arm, 29 April 2013 - 07:18 PM.


#19 947

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 10:02 PM

View PostEdwards, on 29 April 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

> So I am just curious what substantiated this knowledge you possess about his lack of mental bandwidth?

From CBS Sports:
" Has a tendency to stare down primary target. Average accuracy in the pocket and will get 'happy feet' when pressured."

From Walter Football:

Weaknesses
  • Not a natural passer
  • Decision-making
  • Field vision
  • Struggles to work through progressions
From NFL.com

*********
NFL Comparison: Blaine Gabbert

. . . Manuel has the velocity and mobility teams look for in a project quarterback.


That comparison to Gabbert is downright scary. I don't agree with it, but reading that is frightening...

#20 pimp 2

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 10:52 PM

Let just see how Hackett and Marrone plan you use the guy. I'm pretty sure they evaluated him a heck of a lot more than some "draft guru", "expert" or fan blog. Seeing that they had the pick of the litter, there must have been something they saw in him...

Most of these reports are so static as if EJ isn't still evolving...he finished the year with a great showing in there bowl game and senior bowl. Also something has to be said about a 25-6 record with a team that was marginal before his tenure. Now if ball security was the argument here I'd understand but all the back & forth here isn't gonna change a thing. The Bills have there guy lets build him up instead of acting like he's reached his ceiling...just a thought.