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Marcel/Kyle rated #2 DT tandem in the league


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#1 Jy Re

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 07:14 AM

http://www.nfl.com/n...dems-in-the-nfl

#2 eball

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 07:52 AM

Both have a lot to prove this year.

#3 buffalobillsfansince1918

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 07:59 AM

Isn't this what people were saying last year?

#4 Max997

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:01 AM

the Bills gave up the most yards rushing in the league last year between the tackles so i wouldnt put too much into this

I still think there is a possibility Williams isnt even on the team this season

Edited by Max997, 17 May 2013 - 08:02 AM.


#5 thebandit27

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:17 AM

I think they erred by putting Atkins/Peko at #4...they're #1 in my estimation.  Both of those guys are studs.

As for Kyle/Dareus, they both need to have strong bounce-back years.

View PostMax997, on 17 May 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

the Bills gave up the most yards rushing in the league last year between the tackles so i wouldnt put too much into this

I still think there is a possibility Williams isnt even on the team this season

A lot of the run defense in Wanny's scheme fell on the LBs and safeties, and they woefully underperformed (specifically Wilson, Sheppard, and Barnett).

Williams will almost certainly be here and starting come September.  Pettine wants him to play the role that Mike DeVito played for him with the Jets, which Kyle is well-suited to play.

#6 Mark80

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:29 AM

Vince Wilfork and whoever he plays next to should be on the list.  He's a one man wrecking crew.

#7 BringBackFergy

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:32 AM

View PostMark80, on 17 May 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Vince Wilfork and whoever he plays next to should be on the list.  He's a one man wrecking crew.
Wilfork is a DT tandem by himself.

#8 frogger

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:36 AM

I think the Bengals have the best interior in all honesty.

#9 clearwater cadet

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:37 AM

They were bad last year.

#10 JaxBills

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:38 AM

Hate that fat man, Wilfork, but have to agree.  Besides, doesn't he count as two people?

#11 KD in CT

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:40 AM

If those guys can get it together this year and Mario is on his game, there could be a real difference on D.   After last year I'll take a wait and see approrach, but there's certainly a chance for a significant improvement in DL play.

#12 JackKemp

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:44 AM

View PostMax997, on 17 May 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

the Bills gave up the most yards rushing in the league last year between the tackles so i wouldnt put too much into this

I still think there is a possibility Williams isnt even on the team this season

No way that Williams plays elsewhere. He is the biggest lock to stay. Way to versatile to not stay. Same with Dareus.

#13 Max997

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:49 AM

View Postthebandit27, on 17 May 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

A lot of the run defense in Wanny's scheme fell on the LBs and safeties, and they woefully underperformed (specifically Wilson, Sheppard, and Barnett).

Williams will almost certainly be here and starting come September.  Pettine wants him to play the role that Mike DeVito played for him with the Jets, which Kyle is well-suited to play.

I don't care what the scheme is run defense up the middle starts with the DTs

#14 Mini Max Anderson Fan

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 09:00 AM

From the article:

"they are better at disrupting plays rather than stuffing the run"


I think the quote above is part of the reason we sucked so badly in run d.  They are trying to disrupt the offense and not filling lanes or taking on assignments.  That could be a wanny problem and not something inherit in the play of these 2 d linemen.

#15 Wooderson

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 09:29 AM

View Postthebandit27, on 17 May 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

I think they erred by putting Atkins/Peko at #4...they're #1 in my estimation.  Both of those guys are studs.

As for Kyle/Dareus, they both need to have strong bounce-back years.

Agreed.  That's who I figured would be #1 before I opened the article.  Atkins is a beast by himself.  Just watching him play is treat.

#16 thebandit27

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 09:31 AM

View PostMax997, on 17 May 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

I don't care what the scheme is run defense up the middle starts with the DTs

Your de facto statement is correct, but what you're implying is not.  The DTs in Wanny's scheme were responsible for getting upfield and creating tackling opportunities for the back 7.  They actually did a good job of this, but--as I said--the LBs and safeties did not hold up their end.  Here's a really nice breakdown of the first NE game from All-22 film perspective that shows exactly what I mean:

http://www.footballo...crashing-nickel

An example from NE's last play of the 3rd quarter:
As the play progresses, a hole begins to open up on the left side. A big reason why is that to defensive tackle Kyle Williams, it feels like he’s being blocked on an inside zone to the right. So, he fights into to the center to close down with the play. By the time he sees Stevan Ridley winding back he’s already closed down a couple of yards widening the gap between him and the DE.
Luckily for the Bills they have a guy responsible for that gap. Unluckily for the Bills it’s the safety playing in the box.

In the example above, Williams is playing his role in the defense correctly.  Wilson and Bryan Scott are the guys--right or wrong--that are responsible for gap control, and they fail to do the job.  Whether or not they should be asked to do that job is another issue altogether, but make no mistake, Kyle is doing what he's supposed to do.

This is just one example, but it's a microcosm of the issues the team had with run D all year long.

Case-in-point:

Obviously, it’s not just the safeties at fault on these plays. You don’t give up almost 250 yards because your safeties don’t fill holes well enough. Dareus got blocked forever on the first play, and Scott ran through and took himself out of the play on the second one. But the reason I singled out Byrd and Wilson is that both plays were deception-based, and both times the safety in the box had the best view of the backfield to see exactly what was coming. I’m sure it wasn't a coincidence that the Bills defenders that had the best chance to stop the Patriots running game (I only diagrammed two plays but there were probably eight more plays in the same vein) were defensive backs.

That’s what game planning is all about: you find areas where you can get the defense into something predictable. In this case, the Patriots knew that if the Bills were in nickel personnel, New England could line up in Strong formations and get defensive backs in a position to be exploited. Once you know what look you are going to get, you can pick the plays with the best chance of succeeding.

Seeing as how the Patriots would run at the box defensive back almost every time, regardless of whether he was on the strong or weak side of the formation, it makes me think the Patriots were packaging all their runs. They would give Brady two (or more) running plays, and tell him to run right at the guy playing linebacker wearing a number that started with a two or three. It was a great game plan that was executed to perfection.


View PostMini Max Anderson Fan, on 17 May 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

From the article:

"they are better at disrupting plays rather than stuffing the run"


I think the quote above is part of the reason we sucked so badly in run d.  They are trying to disrupt the offense and not filling lanes or taking on assignments.  That could be a wanny problem and not something inherit in the play of these 2 d linemen.

It absolutely was...see the link above for an example.

Edited by thebandit27, 17 May 2013 - 09:37 AM.


#17 KOKBILLS

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 09:32 AM

View PostMini Max Anderson Fan, on 17 May 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

From the article:

"they are better at disrupting plays rather than stuffing the run"


I think the quote above is part of the reason we sucked so badly in run d.  They are trying to disrupt the offense and not filling lanes or taking on assignments.  That could be a wanny problem and not something inherit in the play of these 2 d linemen.

Could be...

What is the use of disrupting a play as a DT when they play goes for big yards anyway? Are you really disrupting anything if the offense is still converting?

As to the ranking linked in the OP...This has to be the very definition of "on paper." Because the on-the-field results are less than average... B-)

#18 Dorkington

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 09:45 AM

Show me on the field. Until then, it's about as useful as Madden rankings.

I think, in theory, they could be the top duo in the league, but... show me the baby. :)

#19 NoSaint

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 09:53 AM

View PostKD in CT, on 17 May 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

If those guys can get it together this year and Mario is on his game, there could be a real difference on D.   After last year I'll take a wait and see approrach, but there's certainly a chance for a significant improvement in DL play.

This is the drum I've been beating. The qb is obviously #1 but this is the number 2 spot to grow this team. If both play to potential we are in great shape

#20 Jauronimo

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 09:56 AM

View Postthebandit27, on 17 May 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

Your de facto statement is correct, but what you're implying is not.  The DTs in Wanny's scheme were responsible for getting upfield and creating tackling opportunities for the back 7.  They actually did a good job of this, but--as I said--the LBs and safeties did not hold up their end.  Here's a really nice breakdown of the first NE game from All-22 film perspective that shows exactly what I mean:

http://www.footballo...crashing-nickel

An example from NE's last play of the 3rd quarter:
As the play progresses, a hole begins to open up on the left side. A big reason why is that to defensive tackle Kyle Williams, it feels like he’s being blocked on an inside zone to the right. So, he fights into to the center to close down with the play. By the time he sees Stevan Ridley winding back he’s already closed down a couple of yards widening the gap between him and the DE.
Luckily for the Bills they have a guy responsible for that gap. Unluckily for the Bills it’s the safety playing in the box.

In the example above, Williams is playing his role in the defense correctly.  Wilson and Bryan Scott are the guys--right or wrong--that are responsible for gap control, and they fail to do the job.  Whether or not they should be asked to do that job is another issue altogether, but make no mistake, Kyle is doing what he's supposed to do.

This is just one example, but it's a microcosm of the issues the team had with run D all year long.

Case-in-point:

Obviously, it’s not just the safeties at fault on these plays. You don’t give up almost 250 yards because your safeties don’t fill holes well enough. Dareus got blocked forever on the first play, and Scott ran through and took himself out of the play on the second one. But the reason I singled out Byrd and Wilson is that both plays were deception-based, and both times the safety in the box had the best view of the backfield to see exactly what was coming. I’m sure it wasn't a coincidence that the Bills defenders that had the best chance to stop the Patriots running game (I only diagrammed two plays but there were probably eight more plays in the same vein) were defensive backs.

That’s what game planning is all about: you find areas where you can get the defense into something predictable. In this case, the Patriots knew that if the Bills were in nickel personnel, New England could line up in Strong formations and get defensive backs in a position to be exploited. Once you know what look you are going to get, you can pick the plays with the best chance of succeeding.

Seeing as how the Patriots would run at the box defensive back almost every time, regardless of whether he was on the strong or weak side of the formation, it makes me think the Patriots were packaging all their runs. They would give Brady two (or more) running plays, and tell him to run right at the guy playing linebacker wearing a number that started with a two or three. It was a great game plan that was executed to perfection.
Great stuff, Bandit.  Love your insight and analysis.  Can't wait to recite it verbatim at the water cooler and pretend like I know something about football.