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Jabari Greer mmqb guest


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#1 NoSaint

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:32 AM

Another good fill in for Peter king. Solid summer of these so far.


http://sportsillustr...ng-quarterback/

#2 thebandit27

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:00 AM

Interesting and well-written.

As a side note: I'm not sure how long it will take me to get over the Bills' decision to pay Terrence McGee $7M/year and let Greer walk for $5.5M/year when he was clearly the superior player (even when both were healthy).

New Orleans got a steal; both as a player and person.

#3 NoSaint

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:28 AM

View Postthebandit27, on 01 July 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Interesting and well-written.

As a side note: I'm not sure how long it will take me to get over the Bills' decision to pay Terrence McGee $7M/year and let Greer walk for $5.5M/year when he was clearly the superior player (even when both were healthy).

New Orleans got a steal; both as a player and person.

agreed. i was amazed how cheap he came (even at the time). i told all the saints fans i knew to get excited as he was highly underrated... and they loved him in 2009. he graded out as one of the best in the league that year. hes since struggled with some injuries (2010 he had a shoulder injury and qbs would just throw jump balls at him as he couldnt lift one arm at all, a couple hamstring/groin issues helped him get beat a few times over the years too) but generally hes been a very good player and seems like a good club house guy.

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:56 AM

View Postthebandit27, on 01 July 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Interesting and well-written.

As a side note: I'm not sure how long it will take me to get over the Bills' decision to pay Terrence McGee $7M/year and let Greer walk for $5.5M/year when he was clearly the superior player (even when both were healthy).

New Orleans got a steal; both as a player and person.

No not even close.  Greer couldn't crack the starting line up for 4 years.  McGee was a solid starter for like 7 seasons AND a Probowl kick returner to boot.  McGee was at least twice the player Greer was and the stats support it.

#5 NoSaint

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 12:24 PM

View Postover 20 years of fanhood, on 01 July 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:



No not even close.  Greer couldn't crack the starting line up for 4 years.  McGee was a solid starter for like 7 seasons AND a Probowl kick returner to boot.  McGee was at least twice the player Greer was and the stats support it.

Stats never tell the whole story, and you seem to be using them to tell even less than they normally do.

I don't think that anyone expected McGee to only play 20 more games in his career at that crossroads but he had already give up kick return duties (just 3 in 2008) and Greer often had #1 receivers blanketed in 2008. McGee had proven more, but it wasnt unreasonable to think Greer was an ascending player that had proven a high level of ability was worth keeping. At the close of 2008 I wouldn't fault anyone for choosing either, but it didnt have to be one or the other- it's a shame they didnt just keep both and spend the mckelvin pick elsewhere. I normally don't knock the DB situation like most do but at 5.5m Greer seemed like an easy decision to keep.

Edited by NoSaint, 01 July 2013 - 12:25 PM.


#6 thebandit27

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 01:08 PM

View Postover 20 years of fanhood, on 01 July 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

No not even close.  Greer couldn't crack the starting line up for 4 years.  McGee was a solid starter for like 7 seasons AND a Probowl kick returner to boot.  McGee was at least twice the player Greer was and the stats support it.

I'm not going to re-hash the McGee vs. Greer debate in full, but you're way over-stating your case.  Greer was an undrafted FA...he became a full-time starter during the 2007 season (his 4th in the league).  Prior to that time, he started 3 NFL games and played in all or parts of 41 others; it's not as though he couldn't play.  I never felt watching McGee that he was anything more than an average starter, as he was routinely victimized by above-average NFL WRs.  Greer was the opposite; I remember watching him shut down T.O. in the Dallas Monday Night Game.  I remember teams deliberately game-planning to throw at McGee and away from Greer game in and game out.

I don't have any desire to convince you that he was the better player; that's simply my opinion.  As for the stats that apparently support McGee being twice the player as Greer: they don't exist.  Yes, McGee was a very good kick returner...I'm not paying a KR $7M/year.  A guy getting that much $$ in the secondary should be shutting down receivers, like Greer has done in New Orleans for less than that amount.  Trying to compare #s for CBs is pointless, since the best players are the guys that are the least targeted.

Set aside the fact that since the two signed their respective deals (after the 2008 season), Greer has started 53 games, been to the playoffs 3 times, won a superbowl, while amassing 8 INTs and 226 tackles; McGee, on the other hand, has started 33 games, never sniffing the playoffs, and hasn't created a turnover since December of 2009.

So explain to me again why it was smart to give McGee $7M/year instead of giving Greer $5.5M/year?

I guess you're right...it isn't even close.

View PostNoSaint, on 01 July 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

Stats never tell the whole story, and you seem to be using them to tell even less than they normally do.

I don't think that anyone expected McGee to only play 20 more games in his career at that crossroads but he had already give up kick return duties (just 3 in 2008) and Greer often had #1 receivers blanketed in 2008. McGee had proven more, but it wasnt unreasonable to think Greer was an ascending player that had proven a high level of ability was worth keeping. At the close of 2008 I wouldn't fault anyone for choosing either, but it didnt have to be one or the other- it's a shame they didnt just keep both and spend the mckelvin pick elsewhere. I normally don't knock the DB situation like most do but at 5.5m Greer seemed like an easy decision to keep.

I'll agree with most of this, except that I can't imagine why the team thought it was a good idea to pay McGee that amount.  By the way, you're absolutely right about Greer facing the opposition's #1 primarily in 2008--very few fans made the observation at the time.

#7 Spiderweb

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 03:56 PM

Wow, unbelievable amount of revisionist history!!! Did any of you even watch the Bill in 2008? McGee was our best CB and more often than not did a very good job, thus the contract. In fact, the opponents number ones  frequently went to Jabari's side to get away from McGee. Jabari played well in 2008, that I do remember, but one constant around here is that a number of folks have either very short memories, or they simply wait a bit and then make history whatever they feel like making it out to be.

#8 NoSaint

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 04:56 PM

View Postthebandit27, on 01 July 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

I'll agree with most of this, except that I can't imagine why the team thought it was a good idea to pay McGee that amount.  By the way, you're absolutely right about Greer facing the opposition's #1 primarily in 2008--very few fans made the observation at the time.

if i had to choose mcgee at 7 or greer at 5.5, id choose greer easily but id like either (both). i dont think, putting myself in 2008 shoes that mcgee was bad though. in fact, when he could suit up, even after that, he played corner well. physical, smart, athletic and all around good guy - i dont mind rewarding the type of player he was. if he couldve stayed healthy, it wouldnt have been a terrible contract by any means.  

greer was pretty lights out in 2008, and 2009 though. he was playing some amazing ball week in and week out. i was shocked there wasnt a bigger market for him, and still curious what evaluations behind the scenes were - as from my eyeball test 5.5m was great value.

Edited by NoSaint, 01 July 2013 - 04:57 PM.


#9 Coach Tuesday

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 06:10 PM

The boneheaded McKelvin pick made one of them "expendable."  The problem started there.  Should've picked a ballplayer in 2008 and kept both guys.

#10 NoSaint

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 06:32 PM

View PostCoach Tuesday, on 01 July 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

The boneheaded McKelvin pick made one of them "expendable."  The problem started there.  Should've picked a ballplayer in 2008 and kept both guys.

That's right - mckelvin was right before not after

#11 Noodlearm

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:24 PM

He was a playmaker. We never kept playmakers. At least he won a championship the only way possible for a Bill in the recent and not so recent past, with another team.

#12 thebandit27

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 07:47 AM

View PostSpiderweb, on 01 July 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

Wow, unbelievable amount of revisionist history!!! Did any of you even watch the Bill in 2008? McGee was our best CB and more often than not did a very good job, thus the contract. In fact, the opponents number ones  frequently went to Jabari's side to get away from McGee. Jabari played well in 2008, that I do remember, but one constant around here is that a number of folks have either very short memories, or they simply wait a bit and then make history whatever they feel like making it out to be.

Well that's all a matter of opinion, as I'd call your version revisionist if anything.  I never felt McGee was a great CB...he was an outstanding KR that was an average starting CB IMO.  If you feel differently then that's fine, but their respective play since the contracts is not in the same universe.

It's more than a bit unfair to simply group someone with a different opinion than yours into a lot that simply makes things up.  In fact, I'd call it just plain dumb.

#13 jumbalaya

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 08:08 AM

Greer is just a prime example of cheap acquisition talent the Bills let walk and then have to replace him with a high draft pick.  Jason Peters is a clone.  That is why we have sucked for so long.

#14 NoSaint

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 08:10 AM

View Postjumbalaya, on 02 July 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

Greer is just a prime example of cheap acquisition talent the Bills let walk and then have to replace him with a high draft pick.  Jason Peters is a clone.  That is why we have sucked for so long.

Peters wanted huge money, Greer would've been a value signing  - totally different

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 06:34 PM

View PostSpiderweb, on 01 July 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

Wow, unbelievable amount of revisionist history!!! Did any of you even watch the Bill in 2008? McGee was our best CB and more often than not did a very good job, thus the contract. In fact, the opponents number ones  frequently went to Jabari's side to get away from McGee. Jabari played well in 2008, that I do remember, but one constant around here is that a number of folks have either very short memories, or they simply wait a bit and then make history whatever they feel like making it out to be.

This.  I watched all the games. Greer was never any sort of Shutdown corner.he was slower but had a nose for the football.  At that point in time McGee was by far the best db on the roster and one of the better DBs in the game. Aside from one Miami game when he was abused by Chris Chambers,he was the bills top db week in and out.

McGee was better at man coverage, a better athlete,  bigger, stronger and faster.  Greer was I guess a better I dunno saint?

Greer was a decent zone db who has BTW played only 1 full season as a starter.  1.  That was for all the durability pundits out there. He warmed the bench in Buf because of his questionable run support, which McGee also did better.

Always love how the "ones that got away" are eulegized into these superstars, and "stats and production don't really exemplify how they played"....  Right, ok should we go by what the market decided their play was worth, oh wait, I guess money lies too... Number of probowls, nope can't use that.  I guess Greer has a ring, and was fortunate enough to play with two probowl safeties, and might have been roomies with the DB that basically won the game for the saints with a late pick six.  

Oh well McGee was just much better.  




#16 jumbalaya

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 06:49 PM

McGee was a good corner but he was never one of the best in the league.  Probably the best CB in a Bills uniform which for people on this board means one of the best in the league.

#17 thebandit27

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 06:54 PM

View Postover 20 years of fanhood, on 02 July 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:



This.  I watched all the games. Greer was never any sort of Shutdown corner.he was slower but had a nose for the football.  At that point in time McGee was by far the best db on the roster and one of the better DBs in the game. Aside from one Miami game when he was abused by Chris Chambers,he was the bills top db week in and out.

McGee was better at man coverage, a better athlete,  bigger, stronger and faster.  Greer was I guess a better I dunno saint?

Greer was a decent zone db who has BTW played only 1 full season as a starter.  1.  That was for all the durability pundits out there. He warmed the bench in Buf because of his questionable run support, which McGee also did better.

Always love how the "ones that got away" are eulegized into these superstars, and "stats and production don't really exemplify how they played"....  Right, ok should we go by what the market decided their play was worth, oh wait, I guess money lies too... Number of probowls, nope can't use that.  I guess Greer has a ring, and was fortunate enough to play with two probowl safeties, and might have been roomies with the DB that basically won the game for the saints with a late pick six.  

Oh well McGee was just much better.  

Or perhaps some of us really just felt at that time that Greer was the better player and more deserving of the contract, and it had nothing to do with who we kept or didn't keep.

By the way, since signing those deals, who's been the better player?

I'll save you the time: it's Greer.

Edit: you also may want to do some fact checking as to how many games Greer started in Buffalo.

Edited by thebandit27, 02 July 2013 - 06:55 PM.


#18 San Jose Bills Fan

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 06:56 PM

It reads to me like everyone is overstating their case for McGee and Greer.

McGee was here for longer, 10 years to 5 years and McGee didn't have to fight to prove himself as much because he was a 4th rounder while Greer was undrafted.

That said, to me they were very close as players quality-wise though fairly different in style. McGee continued the tradition of good tackling Bills CBs (following Winfield and Clements) and was a very solid cover man. Greer was outstanding in coverage and as quick over 40 yards as just about any Bills DB I remember this side of Tony Greene. I would give Greer the nod as a cover man but McGee was the better tackler and of course he was an outstanding return man.

JMO.

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 07:26 PM

View Postthebandit27, on 02 July 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:



Or perhaps some of us really just felt at that time that Greer was the better player and more deserving of the contract, and it had nothing to do with who we kept or didn't keep.

By the way, since signing those deals, who's been the better player?

I'll save you the time: it's Greer.

Edit: you also may want to do some fact checking as to how many games Greer started in Buffalo.

View Postthebandit27, on 02 July 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:



Or perhaps some of us really just felt at that time that Greer was the better player and more deserving of the contract, and it had nothing to do with who we kept or didn't keep.

By the way, since signing those deals, who's been the better player?

I'll save you the time: it's Greer.

Edit: you also may want to do some fact checking as to how many games Greer started in Buffalo.

Please dig up that post mr fact checkers.  Love to see how you thought Greer was a better player than McGee at the end of 2008.  Laughable.  As spiderweb says revisionists.  

Everything I've stated about Greers PT in buf was accurate.  started only one a full season ever, not in buf, took most of his tenure in buffalo to get off of the bench.   Bills kept the better player.  



#20 San Jose Bills Fan

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 07:42 PM

View Postover 20 years of fanhood, on 02 July 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

Please dig up that post mr fact checkers.  Love to see how you thought Greer was a better player than McGee at the end of 2008.  Laughable.  As spiderweb says revisionists.  

Everything I've stated about Greers PT in buf was accurate.  started only one a full season ever, not in buf, took most of his tenure in buffalo to get off of the bench.   Bills kept the better player.  

You understate Greer's playing time in Buffalo.

Because McGee was a 4th rounder and Greer an undrafted free agent, it took awhile before the Bills entrusted the undersized Greer with a major role.

However Greer started all 10 games he played in 2008 and 13 of 16 games he played in 2007.

In the 44 games he played previous to those seasons, Greer started just 3 but he was the primary nickel back in many of those games.

And as we all know, the nickel back typically plays more than 50% of all snaps and is virtually considered a starter by NFL clubs.