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Browns owner may be $4,000,000,000 in debt


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#1 \GoBillsInDallas/

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:38 PM

http://sports.yahoo....-184816498.html

http://online.wsj.co...1961503452.html

'The company's debt nearly doubled to $4 billion in a two-year period through last year, as its owners paid themselves two payments totaling $1.7 billion from it, according to Moody's. Last year, Pilot issued $1.1 billion of the debt—largely to fund the second one, a dividend for $700 million, according to S&P. That was partly so Jimmy could buy the Cleveland Browns. Mr. Ingram said the Moody's and S&P numbers contained inaccuracies, but declined to elaborate.'

#2 Ralph W.

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:44 PM

Wish I could be in debt but still buy the Browns... Well maybe not the Browns.

#3 Dragonborn10

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:52 PM

First this is another case that we need MORE regulation not less in this country.  This is very similar to what Romney's firm did in that they paid themselves first and saddled the company with even more debt.   Second how does the NFL not figure this stuff out when vetting the deal???

#4 JR in Pittsburgh

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:00 PM

I can't read the entire WSJ article. But this could be misleading. Could just be an issue of cash flow, and might have made more sense to issue some short-term debt to finance the purchase.

I am pretty sure the NFL would do its due diligence on Flying J's financials.

#5 The Wiz

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:35 PM

That's a lot of zeros.

#6 Kkspike

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:42 PM

Ralph bailed out the Raiders awhile back he should do the same for the Browns.

#7 Dean Cain

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:43 PM

Whether this company is public or private its totally legit to issue this debt.

I think where fraud comes into play was what was this debt being issued for? Expanding capacity, upgrading infrastructure, or paying the executives 2 billion.

Usually you need to sell equity in a company to "cash" out. Taking on debt is the route only private equity, leveraged buyout artists can take when acquiring a company.

This coupled with not paying businesses their fuel rebates timely wreaks of a ponzi like scheme.



#8 Mike in Syracuse

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:56 PM

View PostBigCountryBills, on 01 July 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

Whether this company is public or private its totally legit to issue this debt.

I think where fraud comes into play was what was this debt being issued for? Expanding capacity, upgrading infrastructure, or paying the executives 2 billion.

Usually you need to sell equity in a company to "cash" out. Taking on debt is the route only private equity, leveraged buyout artists can take when acquiring a company.

This coupled with not paying businesses their fuel rebates timely wreaks of a ponzi like scheme.

I predict a bunch of revelations of financial shenanigans followed by a bankruptcy all culminating with a bunch of people getting !@#$ed.   That's how these things usually play out.

#9 jeremy2020

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:47 PM

View PostJR in Pittsburgh, on 01 July 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

I can't read the entire WSJ article. But this could be misleading. Could just be an issue of cash flow, and might have made more sense to issue some short-term debt to finance the purchase.

I am pretty sure the NFL would do its due diligence on Flying J's financials.

Well, the government certainly is...

#10 nobody

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 01:35 AM

View PostMike in Syracuse, on 01 July 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

I predict a bunch of revelations of financial shenanigans followed by a bankruptcy all culminating with a bunch of people getting !@#$ed.

While the top brass gets paid even more bonuses and walks away scot-free.

#11 ExiledInIllinois

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 02:45 AM

View PostKkspike, on 01 July 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

Ralph bailed out the Raiders awhile back he should do the same for the Browns.

The Patriots too.  Only Terry P has that kinda cash in BFLO.

#12 Nanker

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 05:20 AM

View PostDadonkadonk, on 01 July 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

First this is another case that we need MORE regulation not less in this country.  This is very similar to what Romney's firm did in that they paid themselves first and saddled the company with even more debt.   Second how does the NFL not figure this stuff out when vetting the deal???
You mean like improving the bankruptcy laws so a corporate bondholder's position as first creditor for receiving the corporation's assets can't be usurped by the government that wants to give a collective bargaining unit that's under contract with that corporation an equity position in the firm? Yes. I'm all for that.
As to the NFL question - they're greedy MFs who believe what they want to believe.

#13 Chandler#81

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 05:30 AM

Something tells me this thread is destined for PPP..

Poor Browns fans. This guy makes Modell look like a hero.

#14 eme123

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 06:09 AM

View PostDadonkadonk, on 01 July 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

First this is another case that we need MORE regulation not less in this country.  This is very similar to what Romney's firm did in that they paid themselves first and saddled the company with even more debt.   Second how does the NFL not figure this stuff out when vetting the deal???

Wait, The gov't should be in charge of regulating debt??  Smart
http://www.usdebtclock.org


Flying J's debt doesn't mean much without seeing the full financial picture. Downgrading their credit rating is a red flag though.

#15 TakeYouToTasker

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 07:05 AM

View PostDadonkadonk, on 01 July 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

First this is another case that we need MORE regulation not less in this country.  This is very similar to what Romney's firm did in that they paid themselves first and saddled the company with even more debt.   Second how does the NFL not figure this stuff out when vetting the deal???
Actually, if you're paying attention at all, you'll notice that existing regulations (in this case the most minimal and simple protections against fraud) are more than adequate.

#16 Mr. WEO

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 07:23 AM

View PostDadonkadonk, on 01 July 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

First this is another case that we need MORE regulation not less in this country.  This is very similar to what Romney's firm did in that they paid themselves first and saddled the company with even more debt.   Second how does the NFL not figure this stuff out when vetting the deal???

Dude, "Occupy" is over.  Empty your poop bucket, grab a shower and get back to the help wanted pages.

View PostNanker, on 02 July 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

You mean like improving the bankruptcy laws so a corporate bondholder's position as first creditor for receiving the corporation's assets can't be usurped by the government that wants to give a collective bargaining unit that's under contract with that corporation an equity position in the firm? Yes. I'm all for that.
As to the NFL question - they're greedy MFs who believe what they want to believe.

Excellent. Me too.

#17 Snorom

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 08:08 AM

View PostMr. WEO, on 02 July 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

Dude, "Occupy" is over.  Empty your poop bucket, grab a shower and get back to the help wanted pages.



now that was a very lame response to a very extreme problem in this world.  Better to Occupy then to be a toothless redneck trailer trash tea partier. See how easy it is toss insults around with little credence

You can blame the government but its the money that perverts government that is the problem. Take away the over zealous amounts of wealth being pumped into politics and we have a chance. But go ahead and bury your head in the sand thinking that making wealth corps and banks even richer is going to make our world a better place. We already know how well trickle down economic has worked.

The wars, the gifts to foreign nations, the tax breaks and tax loopholes all benefit money, and all these people and entities take all of that extra money and pervert our government in their favor, or use most of it to invest in 3rd world economies for larger profit margins, none of which is being used to create a better society, al of it in the name of increasing the wealth of few and controlling world governments and economies for the benefit of .

put hard limits on political campaign donations. Remove political advertising all together because it nothing more then spin doctored half thrut5h and out right lies, and depend on debates and town halls instead, Return citizens Untied decisions back to it original ruling, and remove lobbyists and MAYBE we have a chance

but as it stands now, its greed and over zealous wealth manipulation that has corrupted everything against us


I will await my warning from the moderators who I am positive will only send me one and nobody else

#18 BuffaloBill

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 08:19 AM

View PostDadonkadonk, on 01 July 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

First this is another case that we need MORE regulation not less in this country.  

At the risk of turning this into a PPP thread how the heck do you come up with that?  

Haslam and his firm look to have ignored regulations that are already on the books.  The 4 billion in debt was a business and lender decision.  Maybe in the absence of the other legal issues it might just be a brilliant one given the cheap money situation the fed has this country in.  Appropriate leverage invested well will make even more money.

Having said that, an NFL team is hardly one of the better investments in the world though over time franchise values have risen.  Probably a fun place for a billionaire to stick some money.

#19 aristocrat

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 08:21 AM

This is a pretty misleading title.  He may have issued 4 billion in debt to himself but do you think he went out and blew it all at the local store?  No.  He bought the Browns and I'm sure the rest is in various investments.  It's also common to do this as a way to avoid paying taxes.  Live on debt not paychecks and you pay no income taxes.

#20 TakeYouToTasker

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 09:29 AM

View PostSnorom, on 02 July 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

now that was a very lame response to a very extreme problem in this world.  Better to Occupy then to be a toothless redneck trailer trash tea partier. See how easy it is toss insults around with little credence

You can blame the government but its the money that perverts government that is the problem. Take away the over zealous amounts of wealth being pumped into politics and we have a chance. But go ahead and bury your head in the sand thinking that making wealth corps and banks even richer is going to make our world a better place. We already know how well trickle down economic has worked.

The wars, the gifts to foreign nations, the tax breaks and tax loopholes all benefit money, and all these people and entities take all of that extra money and pervert our government in their favor, or use most of it to invest in 3rd world economies for larger profit margins, none of which is being used to create a better society, al of it in the name of increasing the wealth of few and controlling world governments and economies for the benefit of .

put hard limits on political campaign donations. Remove political advertising all together because it nothing more then spin doctored half thrut5h and out right lies, and depend on debates and town halls instead, Return citizens Untied decisions back to it original ruling, and remove lobbyists and MAYBE we have a chance

but as it stands now, its greed and over zealous wealth manipulation that has corrupted everything against us


I will await my warning from the moderators who I am positive will only send me one and nobody else
Don't be foolish.  Supply creates demand.

In this case, a supply of government influence created by an activist government with the authority to involve itself in every aspect of it's citizens lives, and the power to extract it's wealth via taxation.

Demand will always arise to meet supply where the product is desireable.

The only way to eliminate the problem is to eliminate the supply.

Eliminate activist government, and you'll see corruption dry up.