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Up-tempo offense: Questions


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#1 Rivermont Mike

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 07:06 PM

After two games, the Bills are averaging about 20 more plays per game than last season (source: Chris Brown blog). This raises questions for me:

1. Does an up-tempo attack favor run or pass, given the Bills personnel likely to start?
2.  Is Kolb's slower pace due to rust? Will H and M demand that he pick it up?
3. Can a quarterback with a propensity for checking down run an up-tempo offense?

Feel free to add other questions or issues that the new pace raises for the Bills. IMO, this is long overdue, but I recognize that we had deficiencies in personnel and coaching.

(Actually, I'm trying to get the discussion off of EJ's knee? ; ) )

#2 Meatloaf Sandwich

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 07:13 PM

"Interesting stat from the Buffalo broadcast: 76 percent of EJ Manuel's plays snapped w/ 23-plus seconds on play clock. Kolb at 12 percent.

— Chris Burke (@ChrisBurke_SI) August 17, 2013"

It's as simple as Kolb just doesn't have command of this offense.

Edited by Meatloaf Sandwich, 17 August 2013 - 07:14 PM.


#3 Rivermont Mike

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 07:17 PM

Agreed. I apologize in advance for not following Kolb's career before Buffalo, but has he ever demonstrated the ability to run this kind of offense?

#4 KeisterHollow

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 07:32 PM

Who knows how it will end up - I was only able to watch highlights, so far, of the second game, but EJ just looks much younger, fresher, faster, quicker out there - like he's a young quick athlete running this offense at a brisk pace as opposed to Kolb, who looks like a middle aged QB going at a slower rate - albeit still faster than normal.  And, from all appearances, it looks as though EJ's mind is processing things just as quickly as he's running them - and the same could be said for Kolb, which bodes doubly well for EJ.  I would like to add - IF EJ is out for the rest of the pre-season, why not let Tuel get a little more of the first, or better defenses, to play against?  Lets see if he can outplay Kolb - I mean, as far as I'm concerned, EJ has got to be the starter, so long as he's not injured, but does Kolb HAVE to be the second string?  If Tuel shows as much or more promise with this offense, why not give the young guy the chance?

#5 bowery4

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:28 PM

View PostKeisterHollow, on 17 August 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

Who knows how it will end up - I was only able to watch highlights, so far, of the second game, but EJ just looks much younger, fresher, faster, quicker out there - like he's a young quick athlete running this offense at a brisk pace as opposed to Kolb, who looks like a middle aged QB going at a slower rate - albeit still faster than normal.  And, from all appearances, it looks as though EJ's mind is processing things just as quickly as he's running them - and the same could be said for Kolb, which bodes doubly well for EJ.  I would like to add - IF EJ is out for the rest of the pre-season, why not let Tuel get a little more of the first, or better defenses, to play against?  Lets see if he can outplay Kolb - I mean, as far as I'm concerned, EJ has got to be the starter, so long as he's not injured, but does Kolb HAVE to be the second string?  If Tuel shows as much or more promise with this offense, why not give the young guy the chance?
Yes, I would think it should be a competition between Tuel and Kolb for back up the rest of preseason at this point. I for one am not certain Kolb would win it either. I think it will more likely be Kolb gets most of the 1st reps during the game to tune up for NE*. That is what likely what they think gives us the best chance to win.

#6 CountryCletus

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:54 PM

View PostRivermont Mike, on 17 August 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

After two games, the Bills are averaging about 20 more plays per game than last season (source: Chris Brown blog). This raises questions for me:

1. Does an up-tempo attack favor run or pass, given the Bills personnel likely to start?
2.  Is Kolb's slower pace due to rust? Will H and M demand that he pick it up?
3. Can a quarterback with a propensity for checking down run an up-tempo offense?

Feel free to add other questions or issues that the new pace raises for the Bills. IMO, this is long overdue, but I recognize that we had deficiencies in personnel and coaching.

(Actually, I'm trying to get the discussion off of EJ's knee? ; ) )

Typically up temp offenses run 10 or 20 personnel... Kolb has never been extremely fast through his reads, but he seems slower than usual, and you can run that type of offense checking it down, but that obviously is t it's intended purpose...

#7 Doc

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:56 PM

1.  Doesn't matter.
2.  Likely not.
3.  Only as long as he keeps the chains moving.

#8 jboyst62

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:59 PM

View PostRivermont Mike, on 17 August 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

After two games, the Bills are averaging about 20 more plays per game than last season (source: Chris Brown blog). This raises questions for me:

1. Does an up-tempo attack favor run or pass, given the Bills personnel likely to start?
Your question does not focus on what is relevant to our offense.  Our offense is a unit which a lot can vary.  The same play can be run 5 times with different results.  
http://www.grantland...option-football
See that from another link.
It favors what ever the defense runs.  Can't really answer that question...

2.  Is Kolb's slower pace due to rust? Will H and M demand that he pick it up?
Kolb was slower, perhaps, because of he had not ran with the 1st team in a while.  I do not think it was because of rust.  I do not think EJ ran faster because he was better, neccessarily.  EJ's stats were not jaw dropping.  Kolbs stats were nothing to write home about but they were not terrible.  Hackett and Marrone will likely get these guys to work on some basic driving, run blocking.  It needs to be more aggressive.  The QB's will need to work on speed regardless.

3. Can a quarterback with a propensity for checking down run an up-tempo offense?
Well, propensity to check down is only going to matter when you have no targets.  Lets see what happens when he has his top two WR's in the game and his starting tailback.  Fred Jackson did well, though.

Feel free to add other questions or issues that the new pace raises for the Bills. IMO, this is long overdue, but I recognize that we had deficiencies in personnel and coaching.

(Actually, I'm trying to get the discussion off of EJ's knee? ; ) )
You did well getting off EJ's knees.

#9 San Jose Bills Fan

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:10 PM

View Postbowery4, on 17 August 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

Yes, I would think it should be a competition between Tuel and Kolb for back up the rest of preseason at this point. I for one am not certain Kolb would win it either. I think it will more likely be Kolb gets most of the 1st reps during the game to tune up for NE*. That is what likely what they think gives us the best chance to win.

Great point

The Bills decision making has to take into account both the short term as well as the long term.

More playing time for Kolb would be most beneficial for the short term and more playing time for Tuel would be best for the long term.

I say this because I believe that there is zero chance that Tuel is under consideration to start the season opener, barring some miracle play on his part.

#10 jboyst62

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:13 PM

View PostSan Jose Bills Fan, on 17 August 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

Great point

The Bills decision making has to take into account both the short term as well as the long term.

More playing time for Kolb would be most beneficial for the short term and more playing time for Tuel would be best for the long term.

I say this because I believe that there is zero chance that Tuel is under consideration to start the season opener, barring some miracle play on his part.
You mean an injury prone QB taking snaps against an aggressive and cheap shot hitting NE team who does not want to come out and be embarassed?  A team we could easily imagine coming out trying to knock a starting QB out knowing Tuel is our 3rd option?


Then again, how !@#$ing (yes, I typed it because it would be that !@#$ing sweet) sweet would it be if that did happen and Tuel comes out and throws 3 TD's in the 2nd half against NE?

#11 San Jose Bills Fan

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:20 PM

View Postjboyst62, on 17 August 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

You mean an injury prone QB taking snaps against an aggressive and cheap shot hitting NE team who does not want to come out and be embarassed?  A team we could easily imagine coming out trying to knock a starting QB out knowing Tuel is our 3rd option?


Then again, how !@#$ing (yes, I typed it because it would be that !@#$ing sweet) sweet would it be if that did happen and Tuel comes out and throws 3 TD's in the 2nd half against NE?

What I'm saying is that barring a miraculous performance by Jeff Tuel (and we certainly didn't see it last night) I don't believe the Bills coaching staff is giving any consideration to Tuel starting the season opener.

To your point, the likelihood of Kolb getting injured during the season opener is probably higher than most people would believe.

I'm still holding out hope that EJ will get the start. Despite your reservations about rookie QBs I believe that even a slightly rusty EJ would give the Bills the best chance to win.

#12 jboyst62

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:29 PM

View PostSan Jose Bills Fan, on 17 August 2013 - 10:20 PM, said:

I'm still holding out hope that EJ will get the start. Despite your reservations about rookie QBs I believe that even a slightly rusty EJ would give the Bills the best chance to win.

I 100% agree.  What I am trying to emphasize is that rookie QB's do not lead teams to the playoffs 9 times of 10.  maybe 95 times in 100.

#13 bowery4

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:56 PM

View PostSan Jose Bills Fan, on 17 August 2013 - 10:20 PM, said:

What I'm saying is that barring a miraculous performance by Jeff Tuel (and we certainly didn't see it last night) I don't believe the Bills coaching staff is giving any consideration to Tuel starting the season opener.

To your point, the likelihood of Kolb getting injured during the season opener is probably higher than most people would believe.

I'm still holding out hope that EJ will get the start. Despite your reservations about rookie QBs I believe that even a slightly rusty EJ would give the Bills the best chance to win.

1. I would think that in light of the next  2. sentence (being a worse case senereio but a possible one... they will have to think about it). 3. Me too
4. 2 injured and unproven QBs 2 weeks in to camp =s a headache! Damn! I just hope they are all ready because they may need to be.

#14 hondo in seattle

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 12:15 AM

I don't have any answers to the OP's original questions but I do have some thoughts about an uptempo offense.

For an uptempo attack to be effective, you need play-makers on offense.  There's no point going 3-and-out in 60 seconds because you can't make the first down.  A bad up tempo offense puts a lot of stress on your defense when it can't convert.  But if you got speed and players with big play ability, the up-tempo gives them more opportunities.

You need to remember that an uptempo attack just doesn't give your players more chances with the ball, if gives the opponent more possessions too.   For example, when the Bills ran the no-huddle K-Gun in 1991, they finished the year #2 in the NFL in plays, #2 in points and #1 in yards.  Great offensive production.  But despite some of the superstars they had on defense, they finished 2nd last in yards allowed as the Bills lead the NFL in plays run against them.

http://www.pro-footb...rs/1991/opp.htm

So besides needing play-makers on offense to capitalize on an up-tempo offense, you need highly conditioned athletes all around and good depth on defense because your starters are going to need breathers.

#15 reddogblitz

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 01:32 AM

I've seen 3 of these new fangled up tempo offenses in pre season so far this year.  Buffalo, Philadelphia, and Jacksonville.  They all went for short distance gains on almost every play,  Either run or throw a short pass.  The idea being, I guess, to run 13 plays and get a TD.  The downside of this is, you have to execute 13 straight plays without a fumbled snap or fumble or pick or a couple of sacks.  And, as Hondo in Seattle has pointed out, you also have to have a really good defense.

This fast paces thing makes me nervous for the Bills for both reasons.  We'll have a lot of rookies on O and our D has stunk for the last umpteen years.  Yeah we got a new coordinator and attitude etc, but we'll see.

It seems in football, play count has become the new stat dujuor as pitch count has become in baseball.

I keep hearing that this fast paced O will take shots down the field,  But how can you run guys deep and then get them back to the LOS to run the next play within 23 seconds?  I haven't seen any fast paced team throw the long ball yet, except when Tuel Time was in game 1.

Has anyone won anything with it the NFL yet?  Seems to be the hot new thing that all the new coaches want to run.  I hear NE did it some last year.  But they also won without it, so not sure that counts.  Just wondering.

#16 djp14150

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 01:53 AM

In all honesty the idea of the up-temp offense doesnt need to to be done and leave 20 seconds on the playclock unless a ssituation warrants it like the defense is trying to do a substitute so you snap the ball with 12 men on the field or when it appears the defense is unsure of their assignments.

One thing the K-gun did as did the offense in cincinati around that time was to line up right away thus preventing Defense targeted substitutes.

Instead of rushing the play i see them telling Kolb or EJ to burn much of the play clock before snapping the ball....also dont be too predictable on when you snap the ball because the defense will look to time this.

#17 reddogblitz

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 02:01 AM

View Postdjp14150, on 18 August 2013 - 01:53 AM, said:

Instead of rushing the play i see them telling Kolb or EJ to burn much of the play clock before snapping the ball....also dont be too predictable on when you snap the ball because the defense will look to time this.
This sounds like what Peyton Manning does.  What I keep hearing of the fast paced offense that we're going to run is to run plays every 20 - 25 seconds or so to gas out the D.