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HC decisions - this best summed it up about Sunday


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#1 UncleMonkeyHead

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 12:44 AM

You can say the penalties, CJ contained, Stevie's drop, or no Gilmore....or a number of other things lost the Bills the game this past Sunday.
I say they still could have won despite those setbacks.
To me, it was the decisions in game that handed the Patriots* the win.
The 4th and shorts in NE territory that Marrone opted to punt.....these were huge. The second thing....not managing the clock when it was most needed. The hurry up is fine but it needs to be used wisely, not "all the time".

This is your first game as HC for a team that needed its first game against the organizations biggest rival. They had a thin set of receivers and their biggest hope at WR was playing with a very noticeable injury. You have them on the ropes....no one, except maybe your young team, expected much out of you in this game much less the entire season. You are rebuilding...and in a sense had "nothing to lose".
You go for it on 4th and 1. You send an instant message to your troops and to your nemesis, that there truly is change....this time things are gonna be different, and it all starts Week 1, against the favorite in the division. You take that opportunity and the cushion of low expectations, and you have your rookie 1st Round QB - the face of the franchise and symbol of your first step in the league as HC, all 6'-5" 240 lbs of him - and you grab that first down. Boost your team's confidence, make the loud statement that this is how things are gonna be done around here now.

Spare me the whiny "what if he doesn't make it?"......you don't ask that....because you make it and there's no reason you shouldn't be able to at home with momentum already in your favor....with your banged up opponent gasping for air against the ropes.

Hopefully this coach doesn't continue to make the same chicken sh*t decisions that we have become accustomed to seeing in Buffalo.

Hopefully, he's smart enough to learn from this and also realize that the clock needs some work when you are up in the fourth against a guy like Tom Brady.

Doug let a huge opportunity go by this past Sunday....a defining moment just waiting for him to grab.




#2 FireChan

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 12:52 AM

View PostUncleMonkeyHead, on 11 September 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

You can say the penalties, CJ contained, Stevie's drop, or no Gilmore....or a number of other things lost the Bills the game this past Sunday.
I say they still could have won despite those setbacks.
To me, it was the decisions in game that handed the Patriots* the win.
The 4th and shorts in NE territory that Marrone opted to punt.....these were huge. The second thing....not managing the clock when it was most needed. The hurry up is fine but it needs to be used wisely, not "all the time".

This is your first game as HC for a team that needed its first game against the organizations biggest rival. They had a thin set of receivers and their biggest hope at WR was playing with a very noticeable injury. You have them on the ropes....no one, except maybe your young team, expected much out of you in this game much less the entire season. You are rebuilding...and in a sense had "nothing to lose".
You go for it on 4th and 1. You send an instant message to your troops and to your nemesis, that there truly is change....this time things are gonna be different, and it all starts Week 1, against the favorite in the division. You take that opportunity and the cushion of low expectations, and you have your rookie 1st Round QB - the face of the franchise and symbol of your first step in the league as HC, all 6'-5" 240 lbs of him - and you grab that first down. Boost your team's confidence, make the loud statement that this is how things are gonna be done around here now.

Spare me the whiny "what if he doesn't make it?"......you don't ask that....because you make it and there's no reason you shouldn't be able to at home with momentum already in your favor....with your banged up opponent gasping for air against the ropes.

Hopefully this coach doesn't continue to make the same chicken sh*t decisions that we have become accustomed to seeing in Buffalo.

Hopefully, he's smart enough to learn from this and also realize that the clock needs some work when you are up in the fourth against a guy like Tom Brady.

Doug let a huge opportunity go by this past Sunday....a defining moment just waiting for him to grab.

I said very much the same thing concerning Doug running Spiller well into the day.  Too afraid to make a mistake.

#3 bowery4

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 01:17 AM

Or you don't go for it and trust that you will put them deep in their own territory and your Defense will do it's job and maybe even get you some points or a turn over.
This is only a question because of MNF, it may be okay at times but it can take the heart out of your team as much as the "if it works" side of the equation.
And with 5 minutes to go, your team is up by 1. It is simple; you are playing one of the highest scoring offensive juggernauts in the history of the league. You have to try to score again, Stevie doesn't drop that pass and there is a chance they may have. TB* has 37 final drive victories before Sunday, he is very good at that. You need totry to put points on the board (and yes the argument could be that it would have been too fast, even if they did score but even with a FG it takes a TD to win).

#4 UncleMonkeyHead

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 01:30 AM

Maybe....But they could have accomplished the scoring with slower snap count, and even if they didn't, Brady has less time to get them in FG position.

To your point of hoping the defense will do its job.....that D spent way too much time on the field. We want our Offense on the field, not the defense against a proven late game drive manager like Brady. Haven't we done all this and allowed him to do this too many times in the past?
I think expecting to make a yard is better than hoping the D stops them, and that's after hoping they don't return the punt for good field position. A lot of hope vs. getting a yard.

#5 Alphadawg7

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 01:50 AM

geezus...more complaining in yet another thread about the hurry up on our final drive.  For the last time...there was almost 6 minutes (an eternity) left with NE having essentially 4 timeouts (2 min warning too) when we had the ball.  There was ONLY 26 more seconds we could have taken off the clock...26 seconds did NOT lose us this game.  Brady was not even in his 2 min offense yet still got a chip shot for his kicker with more than a minute left in the game.  The 26 seconds had LITERALLY NO IMPACT ON THE FINAL OUTCOME OF THE GAME...LITERALLY ZERO.  (I capitalize to emphasize).

The CORRECT call was to keep putting your offense in the most opportune position to extend the drive.  That was based in our hurry up offense.  It was 100% the correct call, not even debatable.  Unfortunately, his players failed to execute the offense to get the first down.  If we could have gotten at least a couple of first downs, then there is value in running out the clock.  But not with almost SIX minutes left in a 1 point game where a stupid FG loses you the game and any one single play can put a team in FG position.  And if that happens the game is 100% over because they will run the clock down to the final seconds to get the final play and your only hope is a rare block or a missed kick.

Its really not that complicated.

#6 conner

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 01:55 AM

View PostUncleMonkeyHead, on 11 September 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

The second thing....not managing the clock when it was most needed. The hurry up is fine but it needs to be used wisely, not "all the time".

You are completely wrong on this. Here, this guy ran the numbers.
http://nickelcitybil...-or-burn-clock/

#7 UncleMonkeyHead

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 02:17 AM

Complaining? Sounds like you are complaining. Settle down.

Even if we converted, we still should have taken more time off the clock. Once the defense already gave up on substitutions thinking hurry-up, you can still stand there and take some time off the clock. What was the hurry? And guess what? Part of coaching and calling plays is figuring on the possibility that you have a drop or no yards on any particular play. Play calling takes into account the next possible play(s).

You can scream and capitalize your words all you want. The FACTS are they lost the game with your "not even debatable" philosophy.
And by the way, we still ended up with ONLY the hope of a rare block or missed FG.


#8 Alphadawg7

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 02:23 AM

View PostUncleMonkeyHead, on 11 September 2013 - 02:17 AM, said:

Complaining? Sounds like you are complaining. Settle down.

Even if we converted, we still should have taken more time off the clock. Once the defense already gave up on substitutions thinking hurry-up, you can still stand there and take some time off the clock. What was the hurry? And guess what? Part of coaching and calling plays is figuring on the possibility that you have a drop or no yards on any particular play. Play calling takes into account the next possible play(s).

You can scream and capitalize your words all you want. The FACTS are they lost the game with your "not even debatable" philosophy.
And by the way, we still ended up with ONLY the hope of a rare block or missed FG.

Wasnt screaming, I said emphasizing.  

Secondly, we did not convert, so you do not know what we would have done if we started converting first downs.  THE FACTS ARE SIMPLE:  There is nothing you can say that can change the fact that ONLY 26 MORE seconds could have been run than what were run.  FACT:  26 seconds did not lose us this game.

CASE CLOSED.  There is literally not one thing anyone can say to argue that 26 seconds lost us this game.  And your blanket comments of "hurry up" or "running out the clock" are NOT relevant statements...what is relevant is the ACTUAL events of the game where the ONLY additional time we could have taken off the clock than what we did was actually about 26 seconds.  

So please, explain to me how 26 seconds lost us this game when Brady had a plethora of more time than that and he wasn't even hurrying.  

PS:  We did not get the ball back with time because, unlike us, the Pats converted first downs and were able to use the clock up on one drive by moving the ball.  We lost this game because we could not keep the ball on offense.  The coaches ran plays and the players did not execute.  

So stop ignoring the facts that ONLY 26 seconds is what you are complaining about.  You have all these what if scenarios and ignore what ACTUALLY happened.

#9 UncleMonkeyHead

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 03:11 AM

View PostAlphadawg7, on 11 September 2013 - 02:23 AM, said:



Wasnt screaming, I said emphasizing.  

Secondly, we did not convert, so you do not know what we would have done if we started converting first downs.  THE FACTS ARE SIMPLE:  There is nothing you can say that can change the fact that ONLY 26 MORE seconds could have been run than what were run.  FACT:  26 seconds did not lose us this game.

CASE CLOSED.  There is literally not one thing anyone can say to argue that 26 seconds lost us this game.  And your blanket comments of "hurry up" or "running out the clock" are NOT relevant statements...what is relevant is the ACTUAL events of the game where the ONLY additional time we could have taken off the clock than what we did was actually about 26 seconds.  

So please, explain to me how 26 seconds lost us this game when Brady had a plethora of more time than that and he wasn't even hurrying.  

PS:  We did not get the ball back with time because, unlike us, the Pats converted first downs and were able to use the clock up on one drive by moving the ball.  We lost this game because we could not keep the ball on offense.  The coaches ran plays and the players did not execute.  

So stop ignoring the facts that ONLY 26 seconds is what you are complaining about.  You have all these what if scenarios and ignore what ACTUALLY happened.


I never said 26 seconds lost us the game....read my original post... i included it, i didn't say it was the main reason.
You say that putting the offense in the most opportune position to extend the drive is using the quick play clock..... The same hurry up all game long resulted in 5 three-and-outs before the last one!!! What was so opportune about that? If your offense showed that many of the same result, shouldn't that clue you in on the your chances on this one? The defense barely sat down before they had to go out again. Without a defensive TD, we don't have the lead. but you act like we had the lead thanks to the up tempo O. With all the penalties they had, maybe that the up tempo was more  of a problem for our offense than a success. If we didn't execute it well, what makes you think they would with a one point lead??? You'll find a way to ignore that as well, I'm sure.  That offense that was living on the hurry up was also dying by it more often.
Brady used the hurry up as well, but they slowed it down as well and still had success...with arguably less talent at RB & WR than the Bills. They definitely ran more plays against us, for more yards, and more points. They won the ball game running a good mix of plays too. And I'm sure a tired Bills D (thanks to the hurry up failures) had a lot to do with Vereen looking like an all-star and a hurt WR dominating us when it counted.
But you'd rather keep getting the same results (yes, another quick 3 and out).

So you seem to be the one ignoring what "actually happened"

Edited by UncleMonkeyHead, 11 September 2013 - 03:12 AM.


#10 ganesh

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 04:04 AM

View PostFireChan, on 11 September 2013 - 12:52 AM, said:

I said very much the same thing concerning Doug running Spiller well into the day.  Too afraid to make a mistake.
Baloney.  If you don't make the play, you are giving the ball back to Tom Brady close to mid-field.  It just takes him a few plays to get the Patriots to FG position to take the lead.  You can't simply second guess the coaching decisions.

#11 DrDonut

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 05:20 AM

I have to agree with Alphadawg, all things being equal, there was only an additional 26 seconds they could have ran off the clock. Not a whole lot. They need to convert. I put this on Marrone/Hackett for not changing up the ineffective running game.

#12 artmalibu

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 05:24 AM

Coaches job it to put players in a position to win and they did that.
The players made the mistakes that lost the game.

#13 Mickey

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 05:41 AM

View PostUncleMonkeyHead, on 11 September 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

You can say the penalties, CJ contained, Stevie's drop, or no Gilmore....or a number of other things lost the Bills the game this past Sunday.
I say they still could have won despite those setbacks.
To me, it was the decisions in game that handed the Patriots* the win.
The 4th and shorts in NE territory that Marrone opted to punt.....these were huge. The second thing....not managing the clock when it was most needed. The hurry up is fine but it needs to be used wisely, not "all the time".

This is your first game as HC for a team that needed its first game against the organizations biggest rival. They had a thin set of receivers and their biggest hope at WR was playing with a very noticeable injury. You have them on the ropes....no one, except maybe your young team, expected much out of you in this game much less the entire season. You are rebuilding...and in a sense had "nothing to lose".
You go for it on 4th and 1. You send an instant message to your troops and to your nemesis, that there truly is change....this time things are gonna be different, and it all starts Week 1, against the favorite in the division. You take that opportunity and the cushion of low expectations, and you have your rookie 1st Round QB - the face of the franchise and symbol of your first step in the league as HC, all 6'-5" 240 lbs of him - and you grab that first down. Boost your team's confidence, make the loud statement that this is how things are gonna be done around here now.

Spare me the whiny "what if he doesn't make it?"......you don't ask that....because you make it and there's no reason you shouldn't be able to at home with momentum already in your favor....with your banged up opponent gasping for air against the ropes.

Hopefully this coach doesn't continue to make the same chicken sh*t decisions that we have become accustomed to seeing in Buffalo.

Hopefully, he's smart enough to learn from this and also realize that the clock needs some work when you are up in the fourth against a guy like Tom Brady.

Doug let a huge opportunity go by this past Sunday....a defining moment just waiting for him to grab.

And I thought we lost because we couldn't get a first down and because we couldn't stop them on that last drive.  Turns out, all we had to do was "send a message" by going for it on 4th down because hey, making the decision to go for it on 4th down is the same thing as converting a 4th down, isn't it? Stupid coaches.

#14 Dragonborn10

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 05:46 AM

Enough already on the clock management with 6 minutes to play.  NE had 3 TO and the 2 minute warning.  Case closed.  Make first downs, get three more downs.  That is the way to burn clock.

#15 Beerball

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 05:52 AM

View PostDrDonut, on 11 September 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

I have to agree with Alphadawg, all things being equal, there was only an additional 26 seconds they could have ran off the clock. Not a whole lot. They need to convert. I put this on Marrone/Hackett for not changing up the ineffective running game.
Play calling was too conservative. I think/hope that we'll see that change as the weeks go on.

#16 BuffaloFan68

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 06:37 AM

If we huddled or at least used a slower pace on all 3 downs of our last possession wouldn't it have been more like an additional 26 seconds X 3?  That would have taken a little over a minute off of the clock which may have been enough for the Cheatriots  to have felt enough pressure for a different outcome.

I agree that our play calling was overly conservative.

#17 billsrcursed

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 06:42 AM

View PostBuffaloFan68, on 11 September 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

If we huddled or at least used a slower pace on all 3 downs of our last possession wouldn't it have been more like an additional 26 seconds X 3?  That would have taken a little over a minute off of the clock which may have been enough for the Cheatriots  to have felt enough pressure for a different outcome.

I agree that our play calling was overly conservative.

Please tell me when/where you've ever seen that happen since Tom Brady has worn a Pats jersey. It wouldn't have mattered.

#18 Captain Caveman

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 07:18 AM

View PostAlphadawg7, on 11 September 2013 - 01:50 AM, said:

The CORRECT call was to keep putting your offense in the most opportune position to extend the drive.  That was based in our hurry up offense.  It was 100% the correct call, not even debatable.

I agree 100%.  And while I agree with the OP that we could have won the game with better coaching, it still would have required player execution, which quite honestly was uneven yesterday.  I'll also put forth that we also would have been likely to win the game with 1 or 2 of better plays (dropped passes) and 1 or 2 instances of not taking a dumb penalty.  There were lots of opportunities for the players to win this game, and my feeling is that in general, you ask your coaches to give you an opportunity to win the game.  Regardless of coaching, the players need to execute more consistently or this is not going to be a good year.

View PostBuffaloFan68, on 11 September 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

If we huddled or at least used a slower pace on all 3 downs of our last possession wouldn't it have been more like an additional 26 seconds X 3?  That would have taken a little over a minute off of the clock which may have been enough for the Cheatriots  to have felt enough pressure for a different outcome.

I agree that our play calling was overly conservative.

Everyone keeps throwing this around and I don't understand it at all.  The conservative thing to do would have been to try and run out the clock as much as possible and not focus on scoring more points, allow your defense to do it's job.  He understood that Brady was likely to score regardless if handed the ball with two minutes left, and made a decision to go with the no huddle because he felt it gave them the best shot of scoring more points.  Right or wrong, it's the opposite of conservative.  The opposite.  Ask yourself what Dick Jauron would have done.  He would have tried to run out the clock, and handed the ball back to the Pats with 3 minutes left instead of 4.

Edited by Captain Caveman, 11 September 2013 - 07:19 AM.


#19 K-9

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 07:28 AM

View PostBeerball, on 11 September 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

Play calling was too conservative. I think/hope that we'll see that change as the weeks go on.

^This.

And even that is understandable, given EJ was coming off an injury that required surgery and his loss of prep time in the pre-season.

The only thing I can seriously question Marrone on in retrospect is the challenge on a perceived fumble that NE recovered anyway. And I think that wasn't entirely his fault, either. I think he got some bad advice from upstairs initially.

GO BILLS!!!

#20 8and8Forever

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 07:34 AM

View PostDragonborn10, on 11 September 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

Enough already on the clock management with 6 minutes to play.  NE had 3 TO and the 2 minute warning.  Case closed.  Make first downs, get three more downs.  That is the way to burn clock.
this.  just execute and play to win.  hiding in a huddle for an extra 10 seconds would have accomplished nothing

I thought our little expansion team did pretty well against the Pats.   Gonna be a long season, we lose a starter for 2 months every week it will get even longer