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Rookie OC & It Shows


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#1 T master

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 07:29 PM

I've noticed every one getting on Tuel for the miracles that he didn't perform when called on to bail out the team when our not so stellar #1 rookie QB was injured in last nights game . But i think a lot stems not only from the lack of NFL knowledge at the QB position but at the OC position too !!

I saw like 1 maybe 2 screen plays to a RB that gained decent yardage but then went unused for a lot more of the game then used & when the FB was used some big plays like CJ's TD came from the block that Summer threw, yet when you think back the FB wasn't used as much as should have been if that is working .

Then apparently the lack of trust in EJ throwing the long ball was pretty apparent i didn't see but a couple of plays over maybe 20 yds as far as throws & please (as i'm sure you all will) correct me if i'm wrong . So there's more here than just throwing our 2nd string ROOKIE QB in to a bad situation but we also put our ROOKIE OC in a bad situation !!

It seems how soon we forget what Tuel did in the preseason , which i know it's gonna be
"he was playing against the #2 & #3 personal & BLAH BLAH" but the kids accuracy from anything i can remember & his awareness of the open guy down the field could in some instances be a plus . But in typical Bills fan fashion lets trash the kid cause he didn't come in & put up Brady like numbers to save the day !!
HE'S A ROOKIE !!

Then Marrone says "It's not a stretch to say we could bring in a QB to start the Cincy game" ?? So we bring in a guy thats doesn't know the offense & expect him to do any better than say
THE 2 GUYS ON THE TEAM !!

So what message is the coach sending to the guys he drafted or chose to be on the team ? Not a very good one from where i'm standing !! If you don't think the guys you have are doing what is needed then get rid of them & get some one that will or keep the guy you had before letting him walk at least you know exactly what we had with Fitz for crying out loud !

At least give Tuel the benefit of knowing the Offense & give him reps with the ones to determine weather or not he is worthy of being the back up they thought he could be . Sure he threw a pick but so has EJ , sure he didn't do great but he got probably less than a quarter of the reps with the ones & has very little if any chemistry with them . So before we send Tuel to the Bills QB grave yard b/c of incompetent leadership in QB maturation throw some of the Blame to our rookie OC !

A rookie QB is probably more fragile in the maturation process than any other position & we not only have rookies at both QB positions but the rookie OC should receive just as much to blame for our ineffectiveness at the sometimes lack of offensive production while these youngsters are on the field so if you all are going to throw Tuel under the bus throw a bit of it to Hacket as well because to this point i've not been super impressed with his experience especially at his play calling either .

OK cut me to shreds Bills fans !! Go Bills !!!

#2 Doc

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 08:42 PM

I hear you on Tuel.  Expecting a win from him, a rookie on a short week without starting reps and coming off the bench in the 3rd quarter, is a little too much.  But EJ played as well as he could given the situation, and with him, they win that game.

The good news is that the Bills will finally have their entire starting defense (minus Carrington, although I like Branch more) against Cincy, the OL is healthier than it's been, and the running game is starting to come around.  That will take a lot of pressure off of Tuel.

#3 mart

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 09:20 PM

Well said, and lets give Tuel  the benefit of the doubt. Give him all his reps and don!t pull him with a pick or if the offense doesn!t move for a few series. He got thrown into the fire on the road, in a prime time game and had to have a case of the nerves ;
better than what he showed, although maybe not good enough, but lets see.
If anyone think Manuel will be offensive rookie of the year, you are dreaming. Accuracy leaves much to be desired plus rookie QB mistakes that all rookies make. Hopefully his upside will bear fruits with more experience.  
Hacketts play calling from the start has been horrible-backs running into the center of the line; pass plays to the sideline, etc. etc.
This game was lost because of the secondary and special teams.
At least, this young team has a chance to grow.

#4 pimp 2

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 09:20 PM

View PostT master, on 04 October 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

I've noticed every one getting on Tuel for the miracles that he didn't perform when called on to bail out the team when our not so stellar #1 rookie QB was injured in last nights game . But i think a lot stems not only from the lack of NFL knowledge at the QB position but at the OC position too !!

I saw like 1 maybe 2 screen plays to a RB that gained decent yardage but then went unused for a lot more of the game then used & when the FB was used some big plays like CJ's TD came from the block that Summer threw, yet when you think back the FB wasn't used as much as should have been if that is working .

Then apparently the lack of trust in EJ throwing the long ball was pretty apparent i didn't see but a couple of plays over maybe 20 yds as far as throws & please (as i'm sure you all will) correct me if i'm wrong . So there's more here than just throwing our 2nd string ROOKIE QB in to a bad situation but we also put our ROOKIE OC in a bad situation !!

It seems how soon we forget what Tuel did in the preseason , which i know it's gonna be
"he was playing against the #2 & #3 personal & BLAH BLAH" but the kids accuracy from anything i can remember & his awareness of the open guy down the field could in some instances be a plus . But in typical Bills fan fashion lets trash the kid cause he didn't come in & put up Brady like numbers to save the day !!
HE'S A ROOKIE !!

Then Marrone says "It's not a stretch to say we could bring in a QB to start the Cincy game" ?? So we bring in a guy thats doesn't know the offense & expect him to do any better than say
THE 2 GUYS ON THE TEAM !!

So what message is the coach sending to the guys he drafted or chose to be on the team ? Not a very good one from where i'm standing !! If you don't think the guys you have are doing what is needed then get rid of them & get some one that will or keep the guy you had before letting him walk at least you know exactly what we had with Fitz for crying out loud !

At least give Tuel the benefit of knowing the Offense & give him reps with the ones to determine weather or not he is worthy of being the back up they thought he could be . Sure he threw a pick but so has EJ , sure he didn't do great but he got probably less than a quarter of the reps with the ones & has very little if any chemistry with them . So before we send Tuel to the Bills QB grave yard b/c of incompetent leadership in QB maturation throw some of the Blame to our rookie OC !

A rookie QB is probably more fragile in the maturation process than any other position & we not only have rookies at both QB positions but the rookie OC should receive just as much to blame for our ineffectiveness at the sometimes lack of offensive production while these youngsters are on the field so if you all are going to throw Tuel under the bus throw a bit of it to Hacket as well because to this point i've not been super impressed with his experience especially at his play calling either .

OK cut me to shreds Bills fans !! Go Bills !!!


What are your expectations of a 1st year QB in the NFL? EJ was developing just fine until this unfortunate injury, IMO. I will add he's on pace or better than last years class of QB's at this point statistically...the Seahawks brought Wilson along rather slowly last year depending heavily on the run & dominating defensive scheme.

So what do you think our "stellar" new toy should realistically be doing to meet your expectations?

#5 CardinalScotts

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 09:31 PM

I really like how they are bring EJ along I thought all along it's going to take 8-9 games before he has total command. Luck after 5 games was 2-3 as well with 7 picks, I think EJ is going to be very good but needs help from more than Woods, SJ cant stay on the field, Graham can't get open or catch when given the opportunity and Chandler is 6-7 but plays like he's 5-10. Chandler should be a big target but constantly defended by someone under 6-0

#6 T master

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 11:27 PM

View Postpimp 2, on 04 October 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

What are your expectations of a 1st year QB in the NFL? EJ was developing just fine until this unfortunate injury, IMO. I will add he's on pace or better than last years class of QB's at this point statistically...the Seahawks brought Wilson along rather slowly last year depending heavily on the run & dominating defensive scheme.

So what do you think our "stellar" new toy should realistically be doing to meet your expectations?

Not throwing balls into the ground , hitting down the field on the long ball , & develop his sight of the field better which was a knock on him in college .

I'm not saying that he's doing terrible but he isn't lighting it up either, & i give part of that blame to the OC for keeping him on such a tight leash & not letting him air it out a bit more than 2 times a game ..

#7 RussellDopeland

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 11:41 PM

I actually haven't had a problem with Hackett's approach. Yes it's been conservative, bordering on fundamentally-unimaginative. But instead of tossing the rookie in the deep end of the pool, they're easing him in- first a toe, than the foot, etc.,etc. Now is where the staff will earn their keep. Bringing in a QB to potentially start without much time to become acclimated with the scheme- tough challenge. But better to bring in some new blood than witness the Tuel-wreck of last night again.

#8 Astrobot

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 08:24 AM

View PostT master, on 04 October 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

I've noticed every one getting on Tuel for the miracles that he didn't perform when called on to bail out the team when our not so stellar #1 rookie QB was injured in last nights game . But i think a lot stems not only from the lack of NFL knowledge at the QB position but at the OC position too !!

I saw like 1 maybe 2 screen plays to a RB that gained decent yardage but then went unused for a lot more of the game then used & when the FB was used some big plays like CJ's TD came from the block that Summer threw, yet when you think back the FB wasn't used as much as should have been if that is working .

Then apparently the lack of trust in EJ throwing the long ball was pretty apparent i didn't see but a couple of plays over maybe 20 yds as far as throws & please (as i'm sure you all will) correct me if i'm wrong . So there's more here than just throwing our 2nd string ROOKIE QB in to a bad situation but we also put our ROOKIE OC in a bad situation !!

It seems how soon we forget what Tuel did in the preseason , which i know it's gonna be
"he was playing against the #2 & #3 personal & BLAH BLAH" but the kids accuracy from anything i can remember & his awareness of the open guy down the field could in some instances be a plus . But in typical Bills fan fashion lets trash the kid cause he didn't come in & put up Brady like numbers to save the day !!
HE'S A ROOKIE !!

Then Marrone says "It's not a stretch to say we could bring in a QB to start the Cincy game" ?? So we bring in a guy thats doesn't know the offense & expect him to do any better than say
THE 2 GUYS ON THE TEAM !!

So what message is the coach sending to the guys he drafted or chose to be on the team ? Not a very good one from where i'm standing !! If you don't think the guys you have are doing what is needed then get rid of them & get some one that will or keep the guy you had before letting him walk at least you know exactly what we had with Fitz for crying out loud !

At least give Tuel the benefit of knowing the Offense & give him reps with the ones to determine weather or not he is worthy of being the back up they thought he could be . Sure he threw a pick but so has EJ , sure he didn't do great but he got probably less than a quarter of the reps with the ones & has very little if any chemistry with them . So before we send Tuel to the Bills QB grave yard b/c of incompetent leadership in QB maturation throw some of the Blame to our rookie OC !

A rookie QB is probably more fragile in the maturation process than any other position & we not only have rookies at both QB positions but the rookie OC should receive just as much to blame for our ineffectiveness at the sometimes lack of offensive production while these youngsters are on the field so if you all are going to throw Tuel under the bus throw a bit of it to Hacket as well because to this point i've not been super impressed with his experience especially at his play calling either .

OK cut me to shreds Bills fans !! Go Bills !!!
Sorry But your post had too many run-on sentences. I'm sure you made many strong points...in each sentence.

#9 matter2003

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 09:26 AM

I think we are watching Hackett adapt and grow each week:

1) Run game was struggling so he scrapped a zone blocking system for more of a power running, man on man blocking system. The result? 350+ rushing yards against the #3 and #4 rushing defenses.

2) EJ having issues on deep sideline throws. Hackett has EJ throw deep posts down middle of the field, one a TD to Woods, the other should have been a TD but underthrown and picked.

3) Screen finally utilized twice in Cleveland game with success both times.

4) Reverse action we have run since week one set up a beautiful fake that should have been a TD if Lee Smith didn't trip over the 5 yard line, and last game we had TJ throw out of it and got a PI call setting up our first TD...

Hackett is evolving and adapting each week, a very encouraging sign. Also when was the last time the Bills scored 20+ points in 5 consecutive games? Even under Gailey our O got basically shutout some games...


#10 Fan in San Diego

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 09:32 AM

Do we bring in another QB? Tuel is the starter with no backups at this point? I think they have to. Should have brought back TJ after Kolb got IR'd.
If EJ starts next week, do we go in with just Tuel as the backup? What if he gets hurt? Brad Smith takes over?

#11 matter2003

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 09:41 AM

EJ is out at least four weeks, he is not starting next week

#12 over 20 years of fanhood

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 10:00 AM

View Postmart, on 04 October 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

Well said, and lets give Tuel  the benefit of the doubt. Give him all his reps and don!t pull him with a pick or if the offense doesn!t move for a few series. He got thrown into the fire on the road, in a prime time game and had to have a case of the nerves ;
better than what he showed, although maybe not good enough, but lets see.
If anyone think Manuel will be offensive rookie of the year, you are dreaming. Accuracy leaves much to be desired plus rookie QB mistakes that all rookies make. Hopefully his upside will bear fruits with more experience.  
Hacketts play calling from the start has been horrible-backs running into the center of the line; pass plays to the sideline, etc. etc.
This game was lost because of the secondary and special teams.
At least, this young team has a chance to grow.

Problem is you don't get a lot of time in the NFL for benefit of the doubt.

My sense on Tuel is he's got arm talent, and they think they can bring him along to be a good back up. He played adequately in preseason probably adequate in practice, but you always hear the live game is faster with more talent speed and effort as well as game planning thrown in.  That's where the men seperate from the boys.

That to me has always been what makes evaluating QBs so difficult.

Take Trent- practice superstar, couldn't hack it in games

Lienart young carr harrington and Tebow were college superstars that just stank in pro ball

Then you have guys like Eli, cutler, rivers who look like john elmontannarino one game and Leif the next.  

Even Peyton has a rep for choking in the big game.

Tuel just looked aweful out there.  He's got to mature and the game has to slow down for him.  It's going to take a while and might never happen.  The only way to find this out was to throw him out there when you had to.

I suspect based on what they asked him to do and what they saw, they learned something about just where Tuel is in reality that they just weren't going to find out any other way.

Edited by over 20 years of fanhood, 05 October 2013 - 10:02 AM.


#13 RuntheDamnBall

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 12:18 PM

View Postmart, on 04 October 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

Well said, and lets give Tuel  the benefit of the doubt. Give him all his reps and don!t pull him with a pick or if the offense doesn!t move for a few series. He got thrown into the fire on the road, in a prime time game and had to have a case of the nerves ;
better than what he showed, although maybe not good enough, but lets see.
If anyone think Manuel will be offensive rookie of the year, you are dreaming. Accuracy leaves much to be desired plus rookie QB mistakes that all rookies make. Hopefully his upside will bear fruits with more experience.  
Hacketts play calling from the start has been horrible-backs running into the center of the line; pass plays to the sideline, etc. etc.
This game was lost because of the secondary and special teams.
At least, this young team has a chance to grow.
I'm sorry, Hackett's play calling hasn't been so consistently bad as to hold EJ back from winning some games.

Tuel did zero, and I mean ZERO to demonstrate his acumen against NFL "ones" the other day.  If you want to argue that that's due to the short week and not getting many reps, I might buy it, but plenty of other guys have come in and plugged in as a backup (often against the Bills) and had success.  Weeden is one such example, and the difference is talent and experience.  The jury is out as to whether Tuel has the former, but he certainly doesn't have the latter, and the team can ill afford to trust him as the only (or best) option going forward this next month or two.

It would be a slap in the face to the defense, and a major hindrance to the development of said rookie OC's game-planning skills and the young offensive pieces surrounding the QB.

#14 Fan in San Diego

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 12:37 PM

My criticism of Hackett is that he is not trying to create mismatches enough. A fast tempo alone is not going to give us an advantage. In fact, I think it is a disadvantage.

#15 K-9

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 01:59 PM

The bigger question is what message would Marrone be sending by telling his players they are sticking with Tuel after that abysmal performance. And it was abysmal. Playcalling, with the exception of the flea-flicker, had little to do with it. They protected him with the run game as best they could, too. It looked like the game was entirely too big for him and he was nervous as hell. He just wasn't ready to do his job. I don't put that on Hackett.

GO BILLS!!!

Edited by K-9, 05 October 2013 - 01:59 PM.


#16 BillnutinHouston

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 04:44 PM

View Postmatter2003, on 05 October 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

I think we are watching Hackett adapt and grow each week:

1) Run game was struggling so he scrapped a zone blocking system for more of a power running, man on man blocking system. The result? 350+ rushing yards against the #3 and #4 rushing defenses.

2) EJ having issues on deep sideline throws. Hackett has EJ throw deep posts down middle of the field, one a TD to Woods, the other should have been a TD but underthrown and picked.

3) Screen finally utilized twice in Cleveland game with success both times.

4) Reverse action we have run since week one set up a beautiful fake that should have been a TD if Lee Smith didn't trip over the 5 yard line, and last game we had TJ throw out of it and got a PI call setting up our first TD...

Hackett is evolving and adapting each week, a very encouraging sign. Also when was the last time the Bills scored 20+ points in 5 consecutive games? Even under Gailey our O got basically shutout some games...
Quality post.

Edited by BillnutinHouston, 05 October 2013 - 04:44 PM.


#17 RuntheDamnBall

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 05:45 PM

View PostK-9, on 05 October 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

The bigger question is what message would Marrone be sending by telling his players they are sticking with Tuel after that abysmal performance. And it was abysmal. Playcalling, with the exception of the flea-flicker, had little to do with it. They protected him with the run game as best they could, too. It looked like the game was entirely too big for him and he was nervous as hell. He just wasn't ready to do his job. I don't put that on Hackett.

GO BILLS!!!
Nailed it.

#18 #34fan

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 12:42 AM

View PostFan in San Diego, on 05 October 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

My criticism of Hackett is that he is not trying to create mismatches enough. A fast tempo alone is not going to give us an advantage. In fact, I think it is a disadvantage.

I agree 100% with the initial OP regarding Tuel. Expecting him to come through under those conditions in THAT environment was a tall order. I also feel that Hackett is completely out of his depth as an NFL OC. As far as mismatches go, I maintain, and will always maintain that Hackett cut the roster too deep. Brandon Kaufmann, and Dorin Dickerson are matchup headaches for coaches who can perceive that kid of thing. -For whatever reason, Nathaniel Hackett simply CAN'T.

Bottom line: There are not enough useable, or reliable weapons on this roster to keep opposing defenses honest, and motivate our young QB's -WE NEED GUYS. We don't know what to expect from Goodwin when he comes back, and Marrone continues to IGNORE Marcus Easley's playmaking ability. We need more talent worked into this offensive scheme.

#19 paupmvp1995

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 01:06 AM

View Post#34fan, on 06 October 2013 - 12:42 AM, said:

I agree 100% with the initial OP regarding Tuel. Expecting him to come through under those conditions in THAT environment was a tall order. I also feel that Hackett is completely out of his depth as an NFL OC. As far as mismatches go, I maintain, and will always maintain that Hackett cut the roster too deep. Brandon Kaufmann, and Dorin Dickerson are matchup headaches for coaches who can perceive that kid of thing. -For whatever reason, Nathaniel Hackett simply CAN'T.

Bottom line: There are not enough useable, or reliable weapons on this roster to keep opposing defenses honest, and motivate our young QB's -WE NEED GUYS. We don't know what to expect from Goodwin when he comes back, and Marrone continues to IGNORE Marcus Easley's playmaking ability. We need more talent worked into this offensive scheme.
Disagree w ur statement of Tuel.  He was terrible.  Has no swagger and could not look more overmatched.  I can't believe he was a D1 starting QB at WSU.  Seriously he had NOTHING!!  But I agree wholeheartedly that we are lacking big time weapons w our offense.  Today's NFL is all about big time playmakers.  Just watch the Saints Broncos Packers, just about every team.  We are lacking that in the passing game.  NO downfield TE threat, and a bunch of smallish possession receivers.  No intimidation in the passing game.  It is a passing league.  All our stud players are on Defense.  Its a start, but we need at least two more studs on offense to be a very competitive team.