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Some Scattered Thoughts About The Buffalo Bills Offense.....


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#1 Bill from NYC

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 07:08 PM

1) For the record, I would not have cut Colin Brown. He filled in for a while at OC and didn't play poorly. Do you people remember when Levitre (and I remain a huge fan of him) played center? He couldn't do it. Brown could. And Woods is looking VERY good this season, but let's not forget that he is prone to injury, OK?

2) Marrone needs to back away from the hurry-up. It makes no sense to go with a huge OL and rely too much on an offense that will tire them out, let alone wear down the defense if and when they don't make first downs. This with inexperienced quarterbacks.

3) The QB situation is strange, it really is. EJ is more talented than Lewis imo. In fact, I see little doubt. BUT, when he returns, he needs to be coached up BIG TIME. EJ throws (from what I have observed)primarily ropes with little air under them. This takes away from his "touch."

4) RG111 has proven 2 things to me:
   1) Running QBs can win football games in this league. There is a real place for them.
   2) Running QBs can easily get hurt.
   Lewis can run. He really can, and with EJ waiting in the wings, I see little risk in taking advantage of these skills. Marrone should, imo, let him loose and call plenty of designed QB running plays. I say this because I want the Buffalo Bills to win football games.

5) Cameron Wake is back. I think that plays should be designed for Glenn to kick his ass.

6) I hope that Spiller can get loose and win us this game.

7) This game, imo, is a big test for Marrone.

8) GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#2 Rubes

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 07:54 PM

View PostBill from NYC, on 17 October 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

1) For the record, I would not have cut Colin Brown. He filled in for a while at OC and didn't play poorly. Do you people remember when Levitre (and I remain a huge fan of him) played center? He couldn't do it. Brown could. And Woods is looking VERY good this season, but let's not forget that he is prone to injury, OK?

2) Marrone needs to back away from the hurry-up. It makes no sense to go with a huge OL and rely too much on an offense that will tire them out, let alone wear down the defense if and when they don't make first downs. This with inexperienced quarterbacks.

3) The QB situation is strange, it really is. EJ is more talented than Lewis imo. In fact, I see little doubt. BUT, when he returns, he needs to be coached up BIG TIME. EJ throws (from what I have observed)primarily ropes with little air under them. This takes away from his "touch."

4) RG111 has proven 2 things to me:
   1) Running QBs can win football games in this league. There is a real place for them.
   2) Running QBs can easily get hurt.
   Lewis can run. He really can, and with EJ waiting in the wings, I see little risk in taking advantage of these skills. Marrone should, imo, let him loose and call plenty of designed QB running plays. I say this because I want the Buffalo Bills to win football games.

5) Cameron Wake is back. I think that plays should be designed for Glenn to kick his ass.

6) I hope that Spiller can get loose and win us this game.

7) This game, imo, is a big test for Marrone.

8) GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

With respect to #3, I have seen EJ throw some passes with really nice touch. He has that ability, and he can do it. I just think he doesn't always understand when to rifle it and when to loft it.

As for #6, I'm just not sure that CJ is recovered enough to turn it loose the way we/he wants to.

I agree wholeheartedly with #5 and #7. Especially #7. A hundred times #7.

#3 BillnutinHouston

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:00 PM

I would like to see a stronger case made for scrapping the hurry up offense.  

I'm not seeing the downside to the hurry up, in fact here's my argument to the contrary:

Supposedly Marrone has studied recent history and hasn't seen significant defensive problems caused by it.  

We are scoring fairly consistently with it (with multiple QBs BTW, which suggests to me that it is effective in limiting defensive substitutions and thus contributing to our overall offensive success).

Our running game seems to be effective in keeping us out of third and longs, reducing the number of 3 and outs.

I see evidence that opposing defenses are getting worn down late.

#4 jboyst62

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:25 PM

We need to put Fred Jackson and CJ Spiller on the field together.  CJ Spiller at 60% is better then a 3rd WR in most cases.  His use is not just a decoy but as a threat.  Gailey was thought of as crazy to put Spiller out wide so often but we see what it did.  We see how great those screens were, we saw how if CJ got 10 yards downfield he could navigate traffic, and most importantly it spreads out some lanes if Jackson is in the backfield.  Fred is a very smart player and if he sees the blitz or the blitz is going to come he is as good of a blocker as anyone and would greatly help this OL.

View PostBill from NYC, on 17 October 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

1) For the record, I would not have cut Colin Brown. He filled in for a while at OC and didn't play poorly. Do you people remember when Levitre (and I remain a huge fan of him) played center? He couldn't do it. Brown could. And Woods is looking VERY good this season, but let's not forget that he is prone to injury, OK?
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.  Legursky may be better, but all reports I remember were saying Brown outplayed him.  I do not want to dwell on the Levitre thing.  I am fine we did not over pay him but I am disappointed still that people do not understand we moved on without a viable fallback.  We came in to the season with 1 starting OG and didn't even look to add a 2nd.

2) Marrone needs to back away from the hurry-up. It makes no sense to go with a huge OL and rely too much on an offense that will tire them out, let alone wear down the defense if and when they don't make first downs. This with inexperienced quarterbacks.
I will give it three more games.  I think it is fair to see what Lewis or someone else can do.  It is easier to slow down then speed up. ---Why 3 more games?  Because I think EJ has a chance to come back for at least one of those games and see if there is any difference having had a chance to progress.

3) The QB situation is strange, it really is. EJ is more talented than Lewis imo. In fact, I see little doubt. BUT, when he returns, he needs to be coached up BIG TIME. EJ throws (from what I have observed)primarily ropes with little air under them. This takes away from his "touch."
I cannot even think about Tuel.  He hasn't disappointed me because I was grounded with him but Lewis has excited me.  He has shown an ability to contribute when asked upon and I do not expect nor want him to become a full time starter (yet).  Going forward with Lewis as a backup QB seems like a comfortable spot.  Matt Flynn and Dennis Dixon - two years ago you'd be thrilled to have Flynn as your starter and Dixon as your QB in waiting backup...now not so much.

4) RG111 has proven 2 things to me:
Curious your thoughts on Cam Newton?
   1) Running QBs can win football games in this league. There is a real place for them.
   2) Running QBs can easily get hurt.
   Lewis can run. He really can, and with EJ waiting in the wings, I see little risk in taking advantage of these skills. Marrone should, imo, let him loose and call plenty of designed QB running plays. I say this because I want the Buffalo Bills to win football games.
It was a little bit of fun watching an elusive QB coming out of the backfield again in Buffalo.

5) Cameron Wake is back. I think that plays should be designed for Glenn to kick his ass.
Glenn is having a solid year and hopefully gets recognized for it.

6) I hope that Spiller can get loose and win us this game.
If Spiller can beat the 1st layer of Miami he can get past their 2nd layer no problem.  However, Miami is active in the box and this will be tough for Spiller if he doesn't bring his A-game and use his vision.

7) This game, imo, is a big test for Marrone.
And Marrone's impact on this team.  Does this team buy in to him - we might find out this week.

8) GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

View PostBillnutinHouston, on 17 October 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

I would like to see a stronger case made for scrapping the hurry up offense.  
My thoughts are focusing down to become a 1st and 2nd down hurry up.  When 3rd down comes we slow down, maybe huddle, maybe not.  We observe the D, we linger at the LOS.  Use motion to draw coverages to our advantage.  If we can give a good 1-2 punch on first and second down we should pick up a 1st by the 3rd.  By all means that would be leaning on the run a lot less and less predictable.  Run-run-pass is not getting it done.  I want no less then 33% of those three downs running, but I want no more then 66% of them runs.  Two short passes on 1st and 2nd down and a run on third with Spiller.  Pass on 1st to Chandler, Give it to FJ to push a few bruiser yards to 3rd and 4 and throw a 15+ yard pass to Goodwin, Graham or SJ13 anywhere.  There will be room.

I'm not seeing the downside to the hurry up, in fact here's my argument to the contrary:

Supposedly Marrone has studied recent history and hasn't seen significant defensive problems caused by it.  

We are scoring fairly consistently with it (with multiple QBs BTW, which suggests to me that it is effective in limiting defensive substitutions and thus contributing to our overall offensive success).

Our running game seems to be effective in keeping us out of third and longs, reducing the number of 3 and outs.

I see evidence that opposing defenses are getting worn down late.

View PostRubes, on 17 October 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

With respect to #3, I have seen EJ throw some passes with really nice touch. He has that ability, and he can do it. I just think he doesn't always understand when to rifle it and when to loft it.

As for #6, I'm just not sure that CJ is recovered enough to turn it loose the way we/he wants to.

I agree wholeheartedly with #5 and #7. Especially #7. A hundred times #7.
What makes you say this about CJ's recovery?

#5 HoF Watkins

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:27 PM

I don't even care that they let him walk, I'm not a guy that is up in arms about the O-line...but Levitre changed position mid-game, without practicing in who knows how long (training camp?), in a blowout, on a field of mud, during monsoon...not fair to judge his centering skills from that performance. It's been posted many times, and it's misleading. Stop doing it.

Edited by Marauder'sMicro, 17 October 2013 - 08:32 PM.


#6 Bill from NYC

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:35 PM

View PostMarauder, on 17 October 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

It's been posted many times, and it's misleading. Stop doing it.

Fair enough. Before I post anything else I will run it by you for approval.

#7 HoF Watkins

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:52 PM

View PostBill from NYC, on 17 October 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Fair enough. Before I post anything else I will run it by you for approval.

Good idea.

I respect most of your posts, so I would think that you could deduce that Levitre was thrown into an extreme situation. If you want to blame him for being unprepared, fine (I think that would be laid at the feet of the coaches), but I doubt they would have given him the job of backing up the center, if he was completely incapable.

It was obvious that his struggles were caused by the combination of not having any reps at center, and the terrible conditions.

Edited by Marauder'sMicro, 17 October 2013 - 08:54 PM.


#8 jboyst62

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:56 PM

View PostMarauder, on 17 October 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

Good idea.

I respect most of your posts, so I would think that you could deduce that Levitre was thrown into an extreme situation. If you want to blame him for being unprepared, fine (I think that would be laid at the feet of the coaches), but I doubt they would have given him the job of backing up the center, if he was completely incapable.

It was obvious that his struggles were caused by the combination of not having any reps at center, and the terrible conditions.
You do have a point, he did not pull a Billy Joe Hobert out there.

However, it is very easy to find reasons to dismiss Levitre because we are faced looking at a half empty glass of beer at the bar and 5 minutes past last call with our best shot being a 4 to take home that night.

#9 HoF Watkins

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 09:02 PM

View Postjboyst62, on 17 October 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

You do have a point, he did not pull a Billy Joe Hobert out there.

However, it is very easy to find reasons to dismiss Levitre because we are faced looking at a half empty glass of beer at the bar and 5 minutes past last call with our best shot being a 4 to take home that night.

He struggled with the exchanges, and I think had some bad shotguns snaps. It was a muddy pool, in a monsoon, and the guy probably hadn't snapped a ball (even on a dry field) since training camp. Mid-game switch of position, so he has to play against guys he hasn't studied on film, running plays from a whole different position, and calling the blocking schemes, all in the midst of a blowout. Give the guy a break.

#10 Rubes

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 09:08 PM

View Postjboyst62, on 17 October 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

What makes you say this about CJ's recovery?

Well, it seemed clear to me that he wasn't 100% in the last game, and I believe he also confirmed that in interviews. He said he's better this week, but obviously still not back where he wants to be, as he was held out of practice. I think he also admitted as much in interviews this week.

Edit: as per this article from BB.com:


Quote

Last Sunday, Spiller appeared to have a bit more of his trademark elusiveness, but he maintains he was far from healthy.

"I definitely wasn't 100 percent,” he said. “It's all about having that confidence to cut off it and that's the biggest hurdle I face each week going into the game. It definitely felt better than last week, but I still feel like I'm not exploding like I normally do."

Edited by Rubes, 17 October 2013 - 09:10 PM.


#11 jboyst62

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 09:15 PM

View PostRubes, on 17 October 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

Well, it seemed clear to me that he wasn't 100% in the last game, and I believe he also confirmed that in interviews. He said he's better this week, but obviously still not back where he wants to be, as he was held out of practice. I think he also admitted as much in interviews this week.
Thanks.

Many people have been saying different things and defending him fearlessly.  I get he is injured and I get he is trying to play through it but when I watch him he still does not seem to have what he had the last two years.  He seemed slower.  But, he moved more tentatively and he did not cut to lanes as crisply - was it because he was scared to test the injury or was it that he could not do it or that he does not have that vision?  Part of me also thinks he doesn't have the same confidence.  Maybe just maybe Gailey was able to extract the player out of Spiller to bring out the very best.  Without whatever that confidence and factor might have been I think it's made a difference.

#12 FeartheLosing

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 09:58 PM

Colin Brown might be better playing at the center position then he ever was at guard, and Eric Wood has ended every year on IR. So the Bills do need a viable backup center. They did the same thing by cutting Geoff Hangartner in the 2011 off season, and the result was a disaster when Wood went down in week 9 that year after starting that season 5-2.

Anyway, was this a cost cutting bean counter move? An, I'm sending a message to the team move that bad play will not be tolerated as Brown was graded as the worst player on the team. Or is this a move because the Bills coaches were frustrated by Browns inability to be coached up at guard? Or is it that the Bills don't want a 6'7'' tall center?

It seems to be that it should be far easier to play guard then center, as the center usually calls the protections for the line and the only position as important on the line besides the blindside tackle is the center IMO.

While I get the reason the Bills chose not to pay Levitre the money the Titans gave him. I just don't get Buddy Nix's philosophy of guards being a dime a dozen, by his reasoning if a tackle fails they can be moved inside to guard. It is my opinion that every position on that line is just about equally important in installing continuity, and solid play. If your guards can't do their job it allows the interior D line the quickest way to disrupt the QB.



In terms of the Bills fast paced offense, it should be relatively simple for an offense to call the play get to the line quickly while not allowing defensive substitutions. This causes several problems for the defense. First, most defenses like to constantly switch out the D linemen to bring in fresh pass rushers. If they can't do this it keeps the tired, slower linemen on the field the entire series.  It also keeps the defense from making substitutions in the defensive secondary. From a regular set to nickle and dime coverage's on 3rd down. It also keeps the same defensive players on the field thus usually making it easier for that rookie QB to make the defensive reads as to what coverage's to expect.
It makes perfect sense to me to always have the offense play the hurry up style / no huddle, even with rookies and new players.


What concerns me bout this upcoming Miami game is that the Dolphins won't be rushing only the front four like the Bangals did last week. I fully expect Miami to throw some exotic blitz packages at the new QB,and since Cincy was able to sack Lewis five times and force him to fumble. I can only think this game is going to show just how glaringly unwise it was to not have an experienced back up QB on the roster.



I'm far more willing to give Marrone / Hackett / Pettine / Whaley a pass this year then I back in 2010 with NFL experienced good old boys Nix / Gailey. So far this regime has looked far more promising to me then the last regime ever did.

#13 BillsVet

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 10:04 PM

I will never understand the lack of synergy on offense with this franchise.  Whether it was Schonert running a no-huddle with Trentative or now with a Nix built OL featuring a lot of big guys blocking for a water-bug back in a hurry up offense ostensibly run by a rookie QB.  None of it makes sense or is remotely coordinated for optimal success on game day.    

It's not hard to predict that sort of change is far too much and will require them to add more suitable pieces, particularly to the OL, in order for the offensive plan  to work.  This is part of the reason why rebuilds in Buffalo take years and other teams are doing it in about 2 years if that.

#14 JR in Pittsburgh

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 10:40 PM

View PostBillnutinHouston, on 17 October 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

I would like to see a stronger case made for scrapping the hurry up offense.  

I'm not seeing the downside to the hurry up, in fact here's my argument to the contrary:

Supposedly Marrone has studied recent history and hasn't seen significant defensive problems caused by it.  

We are scoring fairly consistently with it (with multiple QBs BTW, which suggests to me that it is effective in limiting defensive substitutions and thus contributing to our overall offensive success).

Our running game seems to be effective in keeping us out of third and longs, reducing the number of 3 and outs.

I see evidence that opposing defenses are getting worn down late.

I have been a big naysayer of it, but we do have second most offensive plays in the league. I think it is generating more chances for us and we have been scoring points.

The concern is that it wears the defense out-- a concern that is mitigated if the offense can do better converting 3rd downs (as they did last game).

#15 enlightener

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 10:44 PM

View PostBill from NYC, on 17 October 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

1) For the record, I would not have cut Colin Brown. He filled in for a while at OC and didn't play poorly. Do you people remember when Levitre (and I remain a huge fan of him) played center? He couldn't do it. Brown could. And Woods is looking VERY good this season, but let's not forget that he is prone to injury, OK?

2) Marrone needs to back away from the hurry-up. It makes no sense to go with a huge OL and rely too much on an offense that will tire them out, let alone wear down the defense if and when they don't make first downs. This with inexperienced quarterbacks.

3) The QB situation is strange, it really is. EJ is more talented than Lewis imo. In fact, I see little doubt. BUT, when he returns, he needs to be coached up BIG TIME. EJ throws (from what I have observed)primarily ropes with little air under them. This takes away from his "touch."

4) RG111 has proven 2 things to me:
   1) Running QBs can win football games in this league. There is a real place for them.
   2) Running QBs can easily get hurt.
   Lewis can run. He really can, and with EJ waiting in the wings, I see little risk in taking advantage of these skills. Marrone should, imo, let him loose and call plenty of designed QB running plays. I say this because I want the Buffalo Bills to win football games.

5) Cameron Wake is back. I think that plays should be designed for Glenn to kick his ass.

6) I hope that Spiller can get loose and win us this game.

7) This game, imo, is a big test for Marrone.

8) GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
love this post f colin brown

#16 QB Bills

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 11:33 PM

Relax Colin Brown fans. Don't think his phone is ringing off the hook from the other 31 teams. If Wood goes down, I'm sure this jobber will be sitting at home eating nachos.

#17 reddogblitz

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:28 AM

Our offense is fine.  I would like to see us open it up a little bit more and get 30 points some game.  Maybe Sunday since the Fish D is almost as bad as ours.  Maybe then we could win.

All the talk of the offense and Hackett is really no different than last year when there was much consternation about Fitz and the offense while the D was historically bad.  This year our offense is putting up 20+ points against good defenses.  Meanwhile our defense ranks in the bottom 1/4th of the league and we crow about the offense.  Add to that our kicking teams are now giving up games with bad punt return coverage.  This is where the real problems with the team lie, not the offense or play calling.

I also find it a little funny that last year we didn't want all that passing and wanted to feed Fred and CJ.  This year we are are, but many posters want us to pass more and run less.  We are #3 in the league in rushing.  I kindof like this run heavy attack.  Would be working better if our defense and kicking teams would pick up their game.

Edited by reddogblitz, 18 October 2013 - 02:16 AM.


#18 Buffalo Barbarian

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:24 AM

View PostBill from NYC, on 17 October 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

3) The QB situation is strange, it really is. EJ is more talented than Lewis imo. In fact, I see little doubt. BUT, when he returns, he needs to be coached up BIG TIME. EJ throws (from what I have observed)primarily ropes with little air under them. This takes away from his "touch."

  is wildly inaccurate leaving WRs guessing

4) RG111 has proven 2 things to me:
   1) Running QBs can win football games in this league. There is a real place for them.
   2) Running QBs can easily get hurt.
   Lewis can run. He really can, and with EJ waiting in the wings, I see little risk in taking advantage of these skills. Marrone should, imo, let him loose and call plenty of designed QB running plays. I say this because I want the Buffalo Bills to win football games.

EJ sucks as a runner and should use it sparingly, it also led to his injury.

8) GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


#19 ganesh

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:50 AM

View PostBill from NYC, on 17 October 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

7) This game, imo, is a big test for Marrone.

It will also be his first road win in three attempts....I hope they pull it off.  The OL needs to play well.  I don't know if this D-line can be on the field for 43 minutes in Humid South Florida.

View Postreddogblitz, on 18 October 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

Our offense is fine.  I would like to see us open it up a little bit more and get 30 points some game.  Maybe Sunday since the Fish D is almost as bad as ours.  Maybe then we could win.


Our offense is not exactly fine...With quick strikes and way *TOO MANY* three and outs, we keep our defense on the field for TOO long.  They need to grind it out and have control of TOP.   ANd the offense needs to know how to close out a game.

#20 HoF Watkins

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 05:18 AM

View Postreddogblitz, on 18 October 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

All the talk of the offense and Hackett is really no different than last year when there was much consternation about Fitz and the offense while the D was historically bad.

I should have known you are one of those guys...

No one is buying that dude. We all see him doing to the Titans, what he did to the Bills.

Edited by Marauder'sMicro, 18 October 2013 - 05:20 AM.