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ESPN NATION: Upon further review Bills/Fins


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#1 Kemp2Warlick

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 12:11 PM


ESPN NFL Nation@ESPN_NFLNation6m

Upon Further Review: Bills Week 7 http://es.pn/1h0JW9L


#2 The Big Cat

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 12:12 PM

translation: we gotta get better on first and second down

#3 DC Greg

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 12:18 PM

View PostThe Big Cat, on 21 October 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

translation: we gotta get better on first and second down

YES

#4 JR in Pittsburgh

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 12:47 PM

View PostThe Big Cat, on 21 October 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

translation: we gotta get better on first and second down

The easiest way to address that is to get away from run-run-pass.

Need to throw more on 1st down and run more on 3rd down. Few things sweeter than just handing the ball off to your RB on a 3rd and 7 and watching him pick up an easy first down.

#5 PaattMaann

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 12:53 PM

View PostJR in Pittsburgh, on 21 October 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

The easiest way to address that is to get away from run-run-pass.

Need to throw more on 1st down and run more on 3rd down. Few things sweeter than just handing the ball off to your RB on a 3rd and 7 and watching him pick up an easy first down.

this times a million

WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE FIRST DOWN SLANT THAT PICKS UP 5-7 YARDS????

#6 Gugny

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 12:54 PM

We need to stop passing to receivers 6 yards beyond the line of scrimmage when we need 7 for the first down.

#7 DC Greg

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 12:55 PM

View PostJR in Pittsburgh, on 21 October 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

The easiest way to address that is to get away from run-run-pass.

Need to throw more on 1st down and run more on 3rd down. Few things sweeter than just handing the ball off to your RB on a 3rd and 7 and watching him pick up an easy first down.

Agree completely. And I've heard a lot of talk about 'taking shots'. Take a few shots down field on first downs when the D might be sleeping! Keep them honest, get a huge play, or still have two downs left to convert. Seems like it may be a better option SOMETIMES or ONCE IN AWHILE or AT LEAST ONCE THIS SEASON than all the runs for 1, 0, or -1 yards.

#8 Wayne Cubed

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:33 PM

View PostJR in Pittsburgh, on 21 October 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

The easiest way to address that is to get away from run-run-pass.

Need to throw more on 1st down and run more on 3rd down. Few things sweeter than just handing the ball off to your RB on a 3rd and 7 and watching him pick up an easy first down.

No offence, but I think people don't really pay attention to just how much they do just what you are saying.

Lets look at this last game:

The Bills had 26 first down plays, subtract the 1 kneel down before the half on first down, I think we can call that 25. I also think you can subtract the 2 first downs on the last drive as it was obvious they were trying to run to run the clock down. So will call it 23 first downs the Bills could have thrown on.

The Bills threw 9 times on first down or about 40% of the time.

Now for me, that number seems ok. My guess as to why people don't feel like it's enough? Execution. On those plays that they passed on first down there were:  2 incomplete passes, 2 QB scrambles, 1 sack and 1 holding penalty. That's 3 positive plays. And 1 of those positive plays was after the penalty so it basically to offset it. Not very good.

IMO, the Bills need to execute better.

#9 HurlyBurly51

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:35 PM

Thanks for the numbers.  I thought they passed on 1st down a little more yesterday.

#10 C.Biscuit97

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:37 PM

We need to steal Gailey's playbook and learn how to run good screens.  If I'm a offensive coach, I'm stealing plays from the best in the business.  Gailey had great screens.  And learn from the Saints how to get your explosive rb in space.

#11 Campy

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:00 PM

View PostGugny, on 21 October 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

We need to stop passing to receivers 6 yards beyond the line of scrimmage when we need 7 for the first down.

I want to scream every time I hear/read that because I believe you put the ball in the hands of your playmakers and trust them to make a play and get first.      

#12 JR in Pittsburgh

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:09 PM

View PostWayne Cubed, on 21 October 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

No offence, but I think people don't really pay attention to just how much they do just what you are saying.

Lets look at this last game:

The Bills had 26 first down plays, subtract the 1 kneel down before the half on first down, I think we can call that 25. I also think you can subtract the 2 first downs on the last drive as it was obvious they were trying to run to run the clock down. So will call it 23 first downs the Bills could have thrown on.

The Bills threw 9 times on first down or about 40% of the time.

Now for me, that number seems ok. My guess as to why people don't feel like it's enough? Execution. On those plays that they passed on first down there were:  2 incomplete passes, 2 QB scrambles, 1 sack and 1 holding penalty. That's 3 positive plays. And 1 of those positive plays was after the penalty so it basically to offset it. Not very good.

IMO, the Bills need to execute better.

No offense taken.

I will say that yesterday was an aberration, in that they did throw a little more on 1st down (though, as you pointed out, execution was horrendous). Still, in my view, 9 out of 25 still isn't enough passes.

Maybe the corrollary to changing from run-run-pass, is that on 1st down, we need high percentage passes. What made Gailey's offense so effective is that on a ton of 1st downs, we spread the field and had 3 guys run 7-yard dig or curl routes. Have we done that once this year?

#13 Wayne Cubed

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:11 PM

View PostJR in Pittsburgh, on 21 October 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

No offense taken.

I will say that yesterday was an aberration, in that they did throw a little more on 1st down (though, as you pointed out, execution was horrendous). Still, in my view, 9 out of 25 still isn't enough passes.

Maybe the corrollary to changing from run-run-pass, is that on 1st down, we need high percentage passes. What made Gailey's offense so effective is that on a ton of 1st downs, we spread the field and had 3 guys run 7-yard dig or curl routes. Have we done that once this year?

I agree the right play has to be called if they are going to pass on 1st down. Screens, slants and curls are great. Mix in the occasional deep throw and it'll keep the defense on their heels and open the run.

#14 atlbillsfan1975

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:22 PM

View PostPaattMaann, on 21 October 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

this times a million

WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE FIRST DOWN SLANT THAT PICKS UP 5-7 YARDS????
Hackett calls that on 3rd and 9 after CJ run to the left on first down for one yard and then CJ/Freddie run or short pass on second gets nothing.

#15 The Big Cat

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:38 PM

So: they need to get better on first down, not necessarily pass more.

26 first down plays yesterday: 19 runs, 7 passes

Obviously we run more frequently. But those runs were successful 47% of the time vs. 42% of passes.

So, passing more isn't an automatic solution.

#16 JR in Pittsburgh

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:48 PM

View PostThe Big Cat, on 21 October 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

So: they need to get better on first down, not necessarily pass more.

26 first down plays yesterday: 19 runs, 7 passes

Obviously we run more frequently. But those runs were successful 47% of the time vs. 42% of passes.

So, passing more isn't an automatic solution.

Execution aside, by simply reversing those numbers to 19 passes and 7 runs, I would be willing to bet we would be in 2nd and 3rd and longs far fewer times.

When we run on 1st down and get one or two yards, 2nd and 9 becomes a joke-- obvious passing down. This likely leads to poor exeuction on 2nd down, and then we are in a bad spot in 3rd down.

I'd like to research the breakdown of some of the better offenses and how much they pass on 1st down. I doubt it is 19:7 pass to run ratio, but wouldn't be surprised if it were 50%

#17 peterpan

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:57 PM

View PostJR in Pittsburgh, on 21 October 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

The easiest way to address that is to get away from run-run-pass.

Need to throw more on 1st down and run more on 3rd down. Few things sweeter than just handing the ball off to your RB on a 3rd and 7 and watching him pick up an easy first down.

We were throwing on 1st and second down for 3 1/2 quarters.  I was begging for runs!!!

#18 Captain Hindsight

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:59 PM

View PostJR in Pittsburgh, on 21 October 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

No offense taken.

I will say that yesterday was an aberration, in that they did throw a little more on 1st down (though, as you pointed out, execution was horrendous). Still, in my view, 9 out of 25 still isn't enough passes.

Maybe the corrollary to changing from run-run-pass, is that on 1st down, we need high percentage passes. What made Gailey's offense so effective is that on a ton of 1st downs, we spread the field and had 3 guys run 7-yard dig or curl routes. Have we done that once this year?
Just to comment on this, our strength right now should be our run game. I don't know how much you can expect to be throwing when the 4 QBs on the roster have started a grand total of:

EJ: 5
Thad :3
Flynn: 2
Tuel :0

10 starts for 4 qbs total. That's not enough for me to be slinging the ball around on First down

#19 BillsFan-4-Ever

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 03:03 PM

as it is with every team.

they need to execute on every down effectively from when the clock starts in the 1st qrt to the clock striking 0:00 in the 4th qrt

#20 qdawg in philly

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 03:03 PM

View PostC.Biscuit97, on 21 October 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

We need to steal Gailey's playbook and learn how to run good screens.  If I'm a offensive coach, I'm stealing plays from the best in the business.  Gailey had great screens.  And learn from the Saints how to get your explosive rb in space.
EXACTLY!! But I also agree with execution being a factor.

Edited by qdawg in philly, 21 October 2013 - 03:07 PM.