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O line

Think its OK?

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#1 FeartheLosing

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 05:36 AM

To those who think the Bills O line is just fine...from PFF

Can the Bills Run the Ball?

The whole Bills offensive line grades out at -23.9 with only one of them earning a non-red grade: Cordy Glenn (+0.1). Eric Wood and Erik Pears are the second worst graded players at their position in run blocking both at -10.4.

The running backs have to produce yards on their own given how the line is blocking and Fred Jackson is being the best at it averaging 2.62 yards after contact per attempt – 5th-highest in the league.

It’s still unclear how healthy C.J. Spiller is after playing less than 25 snaps in each of the last two games and he’s far from his numbers in 2012 when he averaged 3.58 yards after contact per attempt. This season he is averaging 1.89 which is the 25th-lowest number among running backs.

https://www.profootb...-bills-week-11/

Most of the Bills fans are still thinking its the RB's (Spiller) stinking it up this year. While the Bills have been better at pass blocking then run blocking. It certainly does give pause to think about how the Bills QB's have been surviving behind this line.


EDIT: Andy Levitre graded as the Bills best O linemen last season by PFF. I always thought he graded that well because he played next to Eric Wood. Now I'm wondering if Wood looked so good because he played next to Levitre.

Edited by FeartheLosing, 17 November 2013 - 05:45 AM.


#2 Bill from NYC

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 06:37 AM

View PostFeartheLosing, on 17 November 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

Most of the Bills fans are still thinking its the RB's (Spiller) stinking it up this year. While the Bills have been better at pass blocking then run blocking. It certainly does give pause to think about how the Bills QB's have been surviving behind this line.


EDIT: Andy Levitre graded as the Bills best O linemen last season by PFF. I always thought he graded that well because he played next to Eric Wood. Now I'm wondering if Wood looked so good because he played next to Levitre.

Welcome to my world. I will take it a step further and partially credit Levitre for helping Glenn develop. Remember, AL played LT in college and was the perfect partner/mentor for Glenn, who obviously possesses brute strength (and other skills).
People do tend to downplay AL in terms of run blocking because he was not seen pancaking defenders on highlight films, but he has very good feet and is great at blocking from angles.
I'm not so worried about Wood if he stays healthy, but he too must truly miss playing next to Levitre.

#3 CardinalScotts

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 06:44 AM

LeVitre has been subject to being over powered his entire career, what he does do well is move. Glenn is a stud - 23 games in he's our best lineman and it's not close

#4 thebandit27

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 09:25 AM



Any grading system that has that outlook on Eric Wood is severely, heavily flawed.

Go watch the Baltimore an Kansas City games and see for yourself.

There's a reason that even PFF itself says it is to be taken with a grain of salt.

Some folks need to watch the games and not simply parade the analytics of PFF across the screen.

PS--if you look at the all 22 from last week's game, you'll see the massive holes the OL created that Spiller somehow kept missing; just like against NE

#5 JR in Pittsburgh

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 10:03 AM

I haven't studied this stat, but would a bad performance by the RB cause the oline stats to suffer? For example, CJ looked to have massive holes last week and missed them. By CJ bouncing it out to pears side when he shouldn't have, does that cause pears rating to drop?

#6 FeartheLosing

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 08:14 AM

To anyone who thinks the current Bills O line doesn't need a few upgrades.


This post was made before the Jets game as PFF was doing its review on the game. Just some excerpts from WGR after the game, so its not just PFF.


Running back,
"C.J. Spiller (27, -2, 1.7), who rushed for only 6 yards on 13 carries. Even though the stat line is one of the worst you'll read for a running back, he was let down a lot by the guys blocking in front of him."

"However, there's little he or any other running back can do when the offensive linemen in front of him get beat immediately and the defender initiates the tackle deep in the backfield."


Offensive Line
To say that the offensive line was poor for the Bills on Sunday against the Jets might be an understatement.

Left tackle Cordy Glenn (67, -1, 2.7)mostly held Quinton Coples in check outside of a play in the third quarter that forced EJ Manuel to make an early decision. He struggled a bit in run blocking, but not nearly as much as right tackle Erik Pears (67, -3, 2.0), right guard Kraig Urbik (67, -5, 1.7) and left guard Doug Legursky (67, -7, 1.3).


http://www.wgr550.co...s-Jets/17817034

With Spiller getting hit BEFORE he even gets to the line of scrimmage tells me this line needs some serious upgrading to be a competitive playoff team

#7 Whitewalker Merriman

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 08:23 AM

Oh, they definitely need to get better. They're not *bad* and they're doing a decent job of pass blocking, but I have to think that Legursky is gone at the end of this year. I would not be surprised if they went shopping during the offseason or spent a high draft pick. Remember, we got Glenn with an early second round pick. Getting a guard in that range doesn't sound like a bad idea.

#8 GunnerBill

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 08:44 AM

Levitre himself was a second rounder as well wasn't he if my memory serves?  I think 2nd round is where I'd be looking for an O-Line man in the 2014 draft.

#9 Green Lightning

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 08:50 AM

Looks like Whaley isn't standing still. He's signed some giant tackle off the Raven's PS and is putting him at guard. I think the FO knows we need a G and a RT moving forward.

#10 Cheddar's Dad

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 10:27 AM

If Buffalo is to compete with the Patriots and Jets in the years to come Legursky and Pears must be replaced. You know Belicheat will fix the interior of his D-line before next year and the Jets D-line is young and will only get better. A team's O-line makes everything go on offense yet many who comment here do not want to draft O-linement high in the draft preferring instead that glamour receiver or TE. The development of EJ, CJ, the young receivers depend on having time to pass and holes to run through.

Marrone said Buffalo needs to get better push and I give him credit for the recent signing of Unga. But if Buffalo's first two picks next May are a tackle, any one of the top three, and Guard Cyril Richardson from Baylor, I will be delighted.

#11 Rubes

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 10:33 AM

We need a LB to replace Moats at least as much as a G, so I don't expect two OL in the first two picks next year, unless we score someone in FA.


#12 C.Biscuit97

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 10:34 AM

Wood looks worse than he is because of the LG position.  Brown was terrible and DL is an improvement but his T Rex arms hurt him.

As for Levitre, Chris Johnson is having the worst year of his career.  Levitre is not worth that money.  But we didn't have a good enough replacement.  If they draft a guy in the first 3 rounds, this could be a very good group.

#13 wnysteel

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 10:38 AM

View PostFeartheLosing, on 22 November 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

With Spiller getting hit BEFORE he even gets to the line of scrimmage tells me this line needs some serious upgrading to be a competitive playoff team

re: this point:  jerry sullivan has an article today, the o-line was interviewed and they said its a matter of missed assignments, and "easily correctable".  i think the problem is an issue of sometimes poor blocking, and other times CJ missing holes.  we'll be better with better talent, but part of it is mental errors it seems

#14 Captain Hindsight

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 10:38 AM

Yeah, overall they are having a down year. Not terrible year but definitely a down year. Legursky has made the LG spot a more difficult turnstile but he is better served as a backup. I hope they move to get bigger on that line next season. Pears will be cut if Hairston is healthy next year

#15 C.Biscuit97

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 10:39 AM

View PostCaptain Hindsight, on 22 November 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

Yeah, overall they are having a down year. Not terrible year but definitely a down year. Legursky has made the LG spot a more difficult turnstile but he is better served as a backup. I hope they move to get bigger on that line next season. Pears will be cut if Hairston is healthy next year

I put zero stock in Harrison.  He has shown nothing but the ability to get hurt.

#16 mrags

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 10:53 AM

View PostGreen Lightning, on 22 November 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

Looks like Whaley isn't standing still. He's signed some giant tackle off the Raven's PS and is putting him at guard. I think the FO knows we need a G and a RT moving forward.
this. Don't forget that Hairston MAY be back next season as well. Should at least give us some better depth at the T position.

View PostRubes, on 22 November 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

We need a LB to replace Moats at least as much as a G, so I don't expect two OL in the first two picks next year, unless we score someone in FA.
Mack in the first round (move up if you must), a LG, and a tall WR.

#17 Cheddar's Dad

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 10:54 AM

View Postwnysteel, on 22 November 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

re: this point:  jerry sullivan has an article today, the o-line was interviewed and they said its a matter of missed assignments, and "easily correctable".  i think the problem is an issue of sometimes poor blocking, and other times CJ missing holes.  we'll be better with better talent, but part of it is mental errors it seems

What would you expect from interviewing O-linemen? Mr. Sullivan, our problem is that we have a few guys that can't play in this league?

#18 over 20 years of fanhood

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 11:25 AM

Using Spiller as a measure of line performance particularly inside O line is questionable.

It is a completely different offense than last year,  he's been injured, never has run inside well, he's been slow to pick up the offense in the past, has a propensity to rush to or miss holes and has questionable vision particularly for zone run blocking schemes, and is not strong on his feet.  

Add that opponents have been stacking the box vs all the young QBs, I fail to see how anyone can vilify Wood, especially when the team has been ranking near the top in overall rushing attack.

#19 wnysteel

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 11:39 AM

View PostCheddar, on 22 November 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

What would you expect from interviewing O-linemen? Mr. Sullivan, our problem is that we have a few guys that can't play in this league?

hey, i read it on the internet...so it must be true...

they have had some very good rushing performances (except against the jets).  7th in the league.  so some things are working.  jets do have a good tandem inside so i'm sure that contributes to their ranking.  i wonder if its a scheme issue, or talent issue (why they struggled against the jets)

#20 thebandit27

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 11:46 AM

View Postover 20 years of fanhood, on 22 November 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

Using Spiller as a measure of line performance particularly inside O line is questionable.

It is a completely different offense than last year,  he's been injured, never has run inside well, he's been slow to pick up the offense in the past, has a propensity to rush to or miss holes and has questionable vision particularly for zone run blocking schemes, and is not strong on his feet.  

Add that opponents have been stacking the box vs all the young QBs, I fail to see how anyone can vilify Wood, especially when the team has been ranking near the top in overall rushing attack.

Agreed...that arguments against the OL are generally cherry-picked.  They struggled against the Jets, a team that is a clear 1/2-yard per carry better than any other run defense in the NFL.  You want to talk about an amazing stat, the Jets have allowed 35 rushing first downs...total for the season.  That's sick.

Conversely, even a cursory look at the Bills' rushing offense shows what they've done to some really good run defenses throughout the year.  As I've mentioned before, and as is detailed in a BN article today, they've faced 5 of the top 11 run defenses in the league.  We already talked about their performance against the Jets, but look what they've done against the other 4:

Cleveland - 3rd in YPC (3.5): Buffalo rushed for 155 yds and 5.0 YPC
Baltimore - 5th in YPC (3.7): Buffalo rushed for 200 yds and 3.7 YPC
Carolina - 8th in YPC (3.8): Buffalo rushed for 149 yds and 4.5 YPC
Cincinnati - 11th in YPC (4.0): Buffalo rushed for 130 yds and 4.1 YPC (with a backup QB no less)

As I've said before: the OL isn't perfect, and they could stand to upgrade at LG and RT.  It's not, however, the biggest issue on the team or even the biggest issue on the offense.  Lack of both a pass-catching and run-blocking TE are easily bigger needs, and I'd venture that a big-bodied boundary WR qualifies as a bigger need as well.

It also would help tremendously if CJ could get back to hitting the hole quickly like he did last year; the mistakes against NE and Pittsburgh were crippling to the team's attempt to set the tone early on with the running game.

View Postwnysteel, on 22 November 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

hey, i read it on the internet...so it must be true...

they have had some very good rushing performances (except against the jets).  7th in the league.  so some things are working.  jets do have a good tandem inside so i'm sure that contributes to their ranking.  i wonder if its a scheme issue, or talent issue (why they struggled against the jets)

A bit of both really...the Jets make their living by clumping their 3 DL inside the tackle box and forcing teams to move them.  Wilkerson and Richardson (the 5-technique ends) are monsters that will crush even above-average opponents if left one-on-one, so teams need to compensate by double-teaming.  That generally leaves the NT (Harrison or Ellis) singled up.  Also, they play their OLBs extremely wide, so they can often force teams to go to a 2-TE set to prevent down-line pursuit, which limits the offense's ability to hurt them with quick passes.

A solid blocking TE would change the way the Jets have to play against your offense, since they can't get away with setting their DL so far inside like they did against Buffalo.  Upgrading the LG and RT spots would help too, but there's no substitute for being able to single-block the edges and allow your OL to double-team inside.