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The Affordable Care Act II - Because Mr. Obama Loves You All


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#4601 GG

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 03:04 PM

This is the typical black and white thinking that is SO prevalent on TBD and elsewhere.

Other countries seem to be able to provide good quality care for all. People I've talked to in England and Canada tell me that's what they have. Of course, one can find horror stories anywhere and I have no doubt they are true.

I have yet to hear opponents to my plan offer a viable alternative. Just stone tossing which I expected anyway.
Except meathead that is.

 

Because it is black and white, since there's a 100-year history that proves that ALL socialist models fail.

 

You can cover your ears and eyes to pretend that Canadian & UK health systems aren't in crisis right now and will get worse as the population ages.  To you and people who think like you, a victory is declared when coverage is miraculously provided to 100% of the population, quality of care be damned.  Yet, the Denver Health is a classic example of the consequences.  The hospital staffs up for more volume, basic care increases, but acute care gets worse.  

 

The worst part is that the true bad news won't hit for several years, because the hospitals and clinics can still function on equipment and facilities that they've invested in over the last decade.  So in this period, everyone will sing happy songs about how great the new universal coverage is and how more people can see a doctor without worrying about the bill.  

 

And then you fast forward a couple of years after the best doctors leave socialized medicine and hospitals slow down their investments, and the old equipment starts breaking down.   Suddenly, the next doctor's appointment is in six months and a visit to the specialist is in one year.  No problem.  You're covered by healthcare.



#4602 reddogblitz

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 03:14 PM

People in England and Canada have care rationing, and in the overwhelming majority of Europe individuals are encouraged to accept death rather than be provided care in advanced age.  This is well documented. 

Thanks for providing an alternative.

As far as the above, 2 things.

1. We have rationing in this country too.
2. Show me where the vast majority are encouraged to die. If it's well documented as you say, that should be easy.



#4603 TakeYouToTasker

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 03:30 PM

 

People in England and Canada have care rationing, and in the overwhelming majority of Europe individuals are encouraged to accept death rather than be provided care in advanced age.  This is well documented. 

Thanks for providing an alternative.

As far as the above, 2 things.

1. We have rationing in this country too.
2. Show me where the vast majority are encouraged to die. If it's well documented as you say, that should be easy.

 

1. We have merit based rationing where those who can afford to pay, meaning the vast majority of the population, receive the best health care in the world in a way which is abundant and on-demand; and those who do not have the ability to pay are never refused service.

 

2. Reading comprehension.  The vast majority of European countries, not the vast majority of individuals.  But, here's a good jumping off point


Edited by TakeYouToTasker, 11 May 2017 - 03:31 PM.


#4604 reddogblitz

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 03:50 PM

1. We have merit based rationing where those who can afford to pay, meaning the vast majority of the population, receive the best health care in the world in a way which is abundant and on-demand; and those who do not have the ability to pay are never refused service.
 
2. Reading comprehension.  The vast majority of European countries, not the vast majority of individuals.  But, here's a good jumping off point.

A couple of things. By what measure does America have "best health care in the world" for those of us that can pay for it?

My reading comprehension is fine. You might want to proof read your posts.

Posted Today, 01:14 PM
TakeYouToTasker, on 11 May 2017 - 1:03 PM, said:
People in England and Canada have care rationing, and in the overwhelming majority of Europe individuals are encouraged to accept death rather than be provided care in advanced age.


Edited by reddogblitz, 11 May 2017 - 03:51 PM.


#4605 grinreaper

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 04:01 PM

And Obmacare started the process of doctors moving from different hospitals?  :doh:


That's not it. People come in here and don't know how a right wing circle jerk can going going on half truths and cherry picked facts.

Making your usual sense.



#4606 TakeYouToTasker

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 04:06 PM

 

A couple of things. By what measure does America have "best health care in the world" for those of us that can pay for it?

 

By just about every standard.  "Outcomes" as graded by the WHO don't make for apples to apples comparisons.  A few examples in from the British healthcare system that bear this out:  in 2004 British hospitals stopped providing bypass surgery to smokers because wait lists were so long that the higher success rate non-smokers weren't getting their bypass surgery and their "favorable outcome" statistics were harming the system, then in 2005 many entire regions began denying overweight individuals knee and hip replacements for the same reason, and in 2006 the stopped treating patients over the age of 80 for strokes.

 

The United States treats these people, and they are factored into our outcome data.

 

 

 

My reading comprehension is fine. You might want to proof read your posts.

No...  no it isn't.

 

Again:   "and in the overwhelming majority of Europe individuals are encouraged to accept death rather than be provided care in advanced age."

 

The overwhelming majority of Europe, not the overwhelming amount of individuals in Europe.


Edited by TakeYouToTasker, 11 May 2017 - 04:06 PM.


#4607 reddogblitz

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 04:13 PM

In this country, we don't give liver transplant to alcoholics, unless you're Mickey Mantle. We also deny lung transplants to marijuana smokers.

http://www.cbsnews.c...r-pot-use-dies/

#4608 Chef Jim

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 04:20 PM

In this country, we don't give liver transplant to alcoholics, unless you're Mickey Mantle. We also deny lung transplants to marijuana smokers.

http://www.cbsnews.c...r-pot-use-dies/

 

So looks like the original diagnosis to deny the transplant was the correct one no? 



#4609 TakeYouToTasker

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 04:20 PM

In this country, we don't give liver transplant to alcoholics, unless you're Mickey Mantle. We also deny lung transplants to marijuana smokers.

http://www.cbsnews.c...r-pot-use-dies/

You're going to compare organ transplants to common acute care?  And while doing so you're going to disregard motive?

 

These changes were made in Britain due to politics because they were aversely impacting outcome data.  In the United States the organ transplants are denied to substance abusers because of the nature of the supply of viable human organs for transplant, and the fact that substance abusers whose addictions directly impact the organ they need transplanted and it's acceptance by the receiving body warrant it.

 

Good grief.


Edited by TakeYouToTasker, 11 May 2017 - 04:21 PM.


#4610 B-Man

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 07:38 AM

Walls fall in on Obamacare

 

Original Article

 

 

It´s not just a Republican talking point that Obamacare is falling apart.

 

Obamacare is crumbling because it was poorly made.

 

Further proof of that arrived Thursday when Aetna said it would quit Obamacare in the last four states where it has been participating.

 

Other insurers are abandoning the law´s insurance exchanges or requesting eye-popping premium increases for next year.

 

These facts demolish Democrats´ insistence that the law is working just fine.

 

Democrats and their allies in the news media have pivoted to blaming President Trump for Obamacare´s struggles.



#4611 Spurna

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 08:43 AM



Walls fall in on Obamacare

 

Original Article

 

 

An opinion piece from The Washington Examiner (whatever that is) isn't an article, stop trying to pass it off as such

 

B-Man is dumb and posts links to garbage

Original Article


Edited by Spurna, 12 May 2017 - 08:44 AM.


#4612 ALF

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 09:01 AM

I thought the idea of Medicare for all would work. Controlled  prices , not hundreds of different plans with admin costs.

 

Provide free medical school to the best and brightest if they stay and work in this country.

 

Same for free nursing school. Gov subsidy of malpractice insurance to keep that expense down.  jmo , I know it won't happen



#4613 Spurna

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 09:12 AM

I thought the idea of Medicare for all would work. Controlled  prices , not hundreds of different plans with admin costs.

 

Provide free medical school to the best and brightest if they stay and work in this country.

 

Same for free nursing school. Gov subsidy of malpractice insurance to keep that expense down.  jmo , I know it won't happen

 

Even just making hospital visits and doctor care free and keeping the drug plans separate (like Medicare currently is) would be a step forward 

 

All the nonsense about "but but but you have to wait in lines!" is coming from the right - even in Canada there's doctors where you can pay cash and be seen immediately. And if you need immediate care you're going to get it immediately - if your MRI has to wait a couple weeks, oh well.



#4614 B-Man

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 09:46 AM

 

 

 

B-Man is dumb and posts links to garbage

 

 

 

Hey.........Spurt is back !  ......... :lol:

 

 

I thought that the board's level of discourse seemed lower............

 

Spurt, have someone actually read this to you.....

 

 

 

  Obamacare Is Still Failing.

 

 

It’s worth remembering amid the brouhaha over the GOP’s tumultuous efforts to come up with a replacement: Obamacare still isn’t working. Many of its most valuable achievements are not sustainable. . . .

 

In any case, the thing that is slowly killing Obamacare, with or without Republican help, is the same thing that is making it so hard for the GOP to come up with an alternative: American health care costs too much. Solving this problem isn’t just about litigating the merits of Obamacare or Trumpcare; it’s about ensuring that the American people have access to the health care they want and need while keeping the country solvent.

 

We can’t do this all at once by some mighty government fiat—or, for that matter, through a blind faith in private markets. It took two generations for us to work ourselves into our present mess, and it will take time to work our way back to a sane and sustainable system.

 

 

America’s problem is that we have too many areas like this: Decades of gradual screwing-up by can-kicking politicians, with the bills now coming due in ways that can’t be fixed short of catastrophe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Aetna Pulls Out of ObamaCare: ABC, NBC Ignore, Mocked Trump for Saying System was Imploding

http://www.newsbuste...ed-trump-saying

 

 

 

"Americans Demand Single-Payer Health Care at GOP Town Hall/Tom MacArthur, the Republican responsible for resurrecting the AHCA, was pilloried by constituents Wednesday night."

 

 

 

Majority of Unemployed Americans Want Obamacare Repealed, Illegal Immigration Stopped.


Edited by B-Man, 12 May 2017 - 09:47 AM.


#4615 Chef Jim

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 11:58 AM

 

Even just making hospital visits and doctor care free and keeping the drug plans separate (like Medicare currently is) would be a step forward 

 

 

 

Would you stop with the free ****.  If I buy you lunch was it free?  Jesus Christ.   :wallbash:



#4616 OCinBuffalo

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 01:57 PM

I thought the idea of Medicare for all would work. Controlled  prices , not hundreds of different plans with admin costs.

 

Provide free medical school to the best and brightest if they stay and work in this country.

 

Same for free nursing school. Gov subsidy of malpractice insurance to keep that expense down.  jmo , I know it won't happen

This shows you know nothing about how health care actually works here, or in any other country in the world for that matter.

 

Medicare is failure. We simply don't know why we are spending what on it. And, as long as politicians want to play macroeconomic games(cut it $400 billion, raise it $400 billion) with it, because they don't know why and what they are spending, it will remain failure. No. Cost must be measured at the most granular level(what I do), then rolled up. Until we measure cost correctly, nationally, Medicare will remain a failure. Pushing the Medicare model out to everybody else is therefore: lunacy. And, it would be a boon to the Russian Mob, because instead of just defrauding old people and the government, because we don't track cost properly, they could then be defrauding everybody and the government.

 

Medicaid is failure. Providers routinely overcharge their insurance/private pay patients, to make up for crap money they get for Medicaid patients, that the government forces them to take. Thus Medicaid is already subsidized in practice, yet, all it has done is drive health care costs up, not down. Why? Because if I am already overcharging to make up for Medicaid, why not overcharge even more...for profit? When you call providers on that? They blame Medicaid, and nobody can argue: the existence of Medicaid is the built-in excuse for over-charging everybody.

 

Medicare and Medicaid are tolerated fraud. AND, neither of them work as designed by LBJ. Example: Medicaid was supposed to be for young people. :lol: Today, 80% of its expenditure is on the elderly. Yeah, great design there.

 

Insurance is failure. Insurers say they hate rising health care costs, but that is BS. The more health care costs, the more valuable insurance becomes. Just think it through. IF my medical event costs $4k, it sucks, but I can probably deal. IF it costs $40k I'm screwed. Hell of an argument for insurance. So, where is their incentive to insist on lower costs? They have none. The only reason health insurance exists at all: companies in the 70s wanted to pay their employees more $, but not have to pay payroll tax on it. Health Insurance is completely unnecessary for ensuring everyone has access to affordable Health Care.

 

The reason health insurance is pulling out of Obamacare? Even higher health care cost, but, limitation of premiums that can't rise to meet the cost, AND, throwing unnecessary coverage, therefore cost, into people's plans as a way to insure those people with serious medical conditions. It's Medicaid FAIL all over again.

 

ALL OF THIS is caused by government. We don't need government in health care. We don't need insurance companies in health care. We don't need CMS costing us billions of $ to produce work product like this( I am now just going to go to their site and randomly pick one of their deliverables, as I have so many times, so we can laugh at it): and as I said here it is  :lol:

 

Not only is that childish, it's 10 years ago thinking that isn't even done right, thus easily scammed, and I swear I just picked it at random. (EDIT: don't understand? Direct your attention to item 6c :lol: Yeah, great idea. Send authentication data in a F'ing email, in the clear, what could go wrong? Oh, yeah, but...they're going to send us a password also via email, that we can use to decrypt everything! Even better! This sounds highly technical, so the whole process must be right. Great! )

 

Now given the facts, remind me why you want anything-government-for-all please.


Edited by OCinBuffalo, 12 May 2017 - 02:40 PM.


#4617 reddogblitz

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 08:06 PM

This shows you know nothing about how health care actually works here, or in any other country in the world for that matter.
 
Medicare is failure. We simply don't know why we are spending what on it. And, as long as politicians want to play macroeconomic games(cut it $400 billion, raise it $400 billion) with it, because they don't know why and what they are spending, it will remain failure. No. Cost must be measured at the most granular level(what I do), then rolled up. Until we measure cost correctly, nationally, Medicare will remain a failure. Pushing the Medicare model out to everybody else is therefore: lunacy. And, it would be a boon to the Russian Mob, because instead of just defrauding old people and the government, because we don't track cost properly, they could then be defrauding everybody and the government.
 
Medicaid is failure. Providers routinely overcharge their insurance/private pay patients, to make up for crap money they get for Medicaid patients, that the government forces them to take. Thus Medicaid is already subsidized in practice, yet, all it has done is drive health care costs up, not down. Why? Because if I am already overcharging to make up for Medicaid, why not overcharge even more...for profit? When you call providers on that? They blame Medicaid, and nobody can argue: the existence of Medicaid is the built-in excuse for over-charging everybody.
 
Medicare and Medicaid are tolerated fraud. AND, neither of them work as designed by LBJ. Example: Medicaid was supposed to be for young people. :lol: Today, 80% of its expenditure is on the elderly. Yeah, great design there.
 
Insurance is failure. Insurers say they hate rising health care costs, but that is BS. The more health care costs, the more valuable insurance becomes. Just think it through. IF my medical event costs $4k, it sucks, but I can probably deal. IF it costs $40k I'm screwed. Hell of an argument for insurance. So, where is their incentive to insist on lower costs? They have none. The only reason health insurance exists at all: companies in the 70s wanted to pay their employees more $, but not have to pay payroll tax on it. Health Insurance is completely unnecessary for ensuring everyone has access to affordable Health Care.
 
The reason health insurance is pulling out of Obamacare? Even higher health care cost, but, limitation of premiums that can't rise to meet the cost, AND, throwing unnecessary coverage, therefore cost, into people's plans as a way to insure those people with serious medical conditions. It's Medicaid FAIL all over again.
 
ALL OF THIS is caused by government. We don't need government in health care. We don't need insurance companies in health care. We don't need CMS costing us billions of $ to produce work product like this( I am now just going to go to their site and randomly pick one of their deliverables, as I have so many times, so we can laugh at it): and as I said here it is  :lol:
 
Not only is that childish, it's 10 years ago thinking that isn't even done right, thus easily scammed, and I swear I just picked it at random. (EDIT: don't understand? Direct your attention to item 6c :lol: Yeah, great idea. Send authentication data in a F'ing email, in the clear, what could go wrong? Oh, yeah, but...they're going to send us a password also via email, that we can use to decrypt everything! Even better! This sounds highly technical, so the whole process must be right. Great! )
 
Now given the facts, remind me why you want anything-government-for-all please.


OK. Now what SHOULD we do?

#4618 B-Man

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 08:37 AM

Obamacare-Hysteria.jpeg?resize=580%2C417



#4619 joesixpack

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 10:04 AM

.

#4620 OCinBuffalo

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 09:38 PM

I hate the word should. Should implies, if not directly demands, an outcome, without doing the work necessary to providing an accompanying solution. Using the word should is laziness, and a way to avoid dealing with facts/immutable factors, that are easier to just ignore, rather than account for in a solution. "No Child Should Go Hungry Tonight" :rolleyes:

 

Thus, I refuse to tell you what SHOULD happen. I have told you what it IS happening. Now, I'm going to tell you what MUST happen to fix it all, and if that doesn't happen, what WILL happen if we do nothing/listen to Bernie Sanders clowns.

 

1. First things first, make all health insurance illegal. It never adds more value than it takes out. This includes government health insurance(Medicare/Medicaid), private/personal health insurance and employer-based health insurance. 

 

:o OMG whatever will we do then? Easy.

 

Let's take them in order:

 

2a. Kill Medicare immediately and allow the elderly to set up local co-ops which they fund directly with their would-be Medicare $. I can give details, but local Medicare-to-Co-Op transition is the way to go. They are part-owners of their Co-Ops and thus have an interest in how they are run.

 

We either do this, or, we bankrupt the country, or, we default on our current Medicare obligations. Take your pick.

 

2b. Replace Medicaid with block grants to the states, which in turn block grant to the county. Only do this long enough to transition completely to county-level Medicaid. Again, I can give point by point details, but, county-run Medicaid is the way to go. Grants for poor counties come with auditors. Again, I have all the details if you require. We can't keep throwing national money into local black holes like Detroit, Chicago and Baltimore, seeing no return on our "investment", seeing disease run rampant, and poor care be the standard.

 

2c. We need to allow local doctors run their own business models again. Health Care is only costly because of Health Insurance and the government. There is a doctor in NYS right now charging a flat fee of $50/month which includes all basic care, including lab work. It's totally worth paying the Obamacare penalty, seeing this doc, no premiums, and signing up for temporary catastrophic insurance. You pay $500-2000+ less a month. Of course, NYS is trying to shut him down. :lol: What they don't know? I know of about 20 other docs who are doing the same, and I know it's spreading. One guy is getting around NYS by making...wait for it...house calls! :lol: He has no office. He treats patients with his camouflaged "ambulance". He's like an Uber-doctor.

 

People that haven't gone to the doctor in years use these guys regularly, and they are obviously catching things sooner, because it's so cheap. It seems we are months away from a full fledged health care rebellion. On this one: the doctors/patients are already killing private insurance/Obamacare markets this way. It's just a matter of time.

 

2d. Employers/unions are the original bad actors here: both seek to avoid payroll tax by paying benefits. Killing insurance not only forces employers to cough up cash, it also can lead to lowering of payroll tax RATES, and it also forces employees to be accountable for their health, as well as to have some $ in the game....by forcing them back into the 2c model.

 

This WILL lower cost, because once every provider has to compete for each patient, they have to get serious about the cost of each patient. 

 

3. Tort-reform. Period. We can't have bad doctors. But, we also can't have a culture where getting injured == winning the lottery. This is why de-centralizing makes sense. If you get treated poorly by a small-practice doctor, you get whatever his insurance has. If you get treated poorly by a Health South doctor? They will overpay you to go away.

 

The big $/consolidation of health care ONLY means higher cost, and, bigger fish for lawyers to attack, which means more settlements, which means even more cost.

 

Start here. There's plenty more. But, let's see how you feel about this.


Edited by OCinBuffalo, 15 May 2017 - 09:46 PM.