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End Of Game Crazy Field Goal Try Play (Question #2)

This Could Work

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#1 ICanSleepWhenI'mDead

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 12:38 AM

Different end of game scenario - - Bills are behind by 1-3 points, there is only time for one last play, and line of scrimmage would make a field goal attempt longer than what Carpenter can make, but only by 5 or 6 yards.

I'm not an expert on NFL rules, but I've read the ones for a "Scrimmage Kick" (i.e., a punt or field goal try) at the official NFL rules site [ http://static.nfl.co...immage_Kick.pdf ] - - I don't yet see anything that would prohibit this play:

Personnel package - - something that looks like a "Hail Mary" pass formation with one exception - - we use a 3 WR bunch formation on the sideline closest to our bench, but we substitute our field goal kicker, Carpenter, in for the WR closest to our bench.  We have 2 WR split out to the other side, and QB in shotgun.  Except for Carpenter (who's a reasonably big, athletic guy with a body type that doesn't scream "kicker"), it looks just like a standard "Hail Mary" formation.  Carpenter wears a number that falls in the "eligible receiver" category, so he doesn't even need to report as "eligible" to the referee.

The crazy play is pretty simple:  At the snap, all the true WRs sprint deep just like in a normal "Hail Mary" - - they flood a corner of the end zone farthest from our bench.  Our QB rolls out towards the other team's bench (same side of the field where the WRs are heading for the end zone), looking downfield as usual.  And doing his best to drag the 3 pass rushing DL with him.

He decides to "run for it" down the far side line, and should have a little open space in front of him at first, because there's probably 8 guys playing deep pass coverage, who won't start to come up till he turns the corner.  At the snap, all five OL guys let the DL run toward the far side line chasing the QB.  Four of the five OL guys also roll toward the far side line, but by "scrimmage kick" rule they can't go more than 1 yard downfield from the line of scrimmage.  I suspect our OL coach can create a blocking scheme where 4 OL block the far side DL just enough for the QB to turn the corner, and then let that DL chase.  QB should be able to outrun the other 2 DL to the corner on his own.  Our 4 OL guys let them chase, too.

The remaining OL guy (with the best hands of the 5), moves to the hash closest to our bench, about 1/2 yard behind the line of scrimmage.  When the QB gets about out 10 yards down field, he stops, turns and throws a backwards pass to the "good hands" OL guy who kneels and spots the ball for a field goal.  If I have to tell you where Carpenter goes at the snap, you don't watch much football.

We just shortened the field goal try by 6.5 yards, to put it within Carpenter's range.  You can't take the ball downfield and then bring it back behind the line of scrimmage to throw a forward pass - - that's specifically prohibited by the rules.  But I don't see anything similar for a field goal try.  There's no restriction on where the ball goes before the kick.  The rules just say that you have to attempt it from behind the line of scrimmage.

There are some rules about which guys can go downfield before a "scrimmage kick."  I think they might be a little different from the rules for a forward pass.  But since no forward pass happens on this play, we just make sure we satisfy the scrimmage kick rules (and alert the referee in advance that what looks like a "Hail Mary" formation is really gonna be a field goal try, so we don't get flagged for violating foward pass formation rules).

Anybody know of any rule that would make this play illegal?

#2 buffaloboyinATL

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 01:06 AM

Wow.

#3 ICanSleepWhenI'mDead

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 01:10 AM

View PostbuffaloboyinATL, on 11 January 2014 - 01:06 AM, said:

Wow.
Good wow or bad wow?

#4 BringBackFergy

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 02:25 AM

Considering Danny Crossman has other things to worry about, I'd stick with the quick 5-8 yd out and stop the clock to get the extra yards needed for Carpenter's attempt. It would take 3 seconds. If less than three seconds left, go for hail mary with hope of PI.

#5 ICanSleepWhenI'mDead

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 02:46 AM

View PostBringBackFergy, on 11 January 2014 - 02:25 AM, said:

Considering Danny Crossman has other things to worry about, I'd stick with the quick 5-8 yd out and stop the clock to get the extra yards needed for Carpenter's attempt. It would take 3 seconds. If less than three seconds left, go for hail mary with hope of PI.
Scenario assumes no time for the quick out.  Hail Mary is clearly the conventional wisdom and what the defense expects - - but that expectation just might help this crazy play work.

#6 angryfan62

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 05:47 AM

I don't believe that the "line of scrimmage" actually changes until the end of a play (postive or negative), so if the ball was not heaved back to behind the original line (before the play) the kick would be ruled illegal IMO. Even if it wasn't, isn't someone going to have to catch that backwards pass and hold for the kick? That would be asking one hell of a lot from our O Lineman, or a lot from Carpenter if you are wanting him to "drop kick" it 50+ yds. I think you'd be better off throwing that backwards pass to someone ridiculously fast like CJ (who convieniently slipped and fell at the beginning of said play and is now being ignored by the defense since the QB is running with the ball. Now pretty much the entire team including the QB and Carpenter can block, sort of a "super screen play" lol. I mean why not as long as we're making up crazy plays?

#7 vincec

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 09:08 AM

View Postangryfan62, on 11 January 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

I don't believe that the "line of scrimmage" actually changes until the end of a play (postive or negative), so if the ball was not heaved back to behind the original line (before the play) the kick would be ruled illegal IMO. Even if it wasn't, isn't someone going to have to catch that backwards pass and hold for the kick? That would be asking one hell of a lot from our O Lineman, or a lot from Carpenter if you are wanting him to "drop kick" it 50+ yds. I think you'd be better off throwing that backwards pass to someone ridiculously fast like CJ (who convieniently slipped and fell at the beginning of said play and is now being ignored by the defense since the QB is running with the ball. Now pretty much the entire team including the QB and Carpenter can block, sort of a "super screen play" lol. I mean why not as long as we're making up crazy plays?
I'd go with this.  The chances of making a 55ish yard field goal with the ball being spotted under these conditions seems pretty remote to me.  The screen seems more likely to work especially if you can actually fool the 3 DL and get most of the opposing DBs on the other side of the field.  Check this image out http://cdn.cloudfile...ia_box/HAIL.png for typical defense vs Hail Mary.  If the X receiver let's himself get taken inside and then takes out the MLB you can run a quick screen to the RB on that open side.  The 3 DBs on the 3 WR side are out of the play and if you can fool the DL, especially the RDE then they are out of the play too.  The MLB is blocked by the X or if necessary one of the OL, so that leaves your other 4 OL vs the 3 safeties downfield.

Edited by vincec, 11 January 2014 - 09:18 AM.


#8 Teen Insight

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 10:07 AM

wtf... was my first response.

But after reading the rules, it seems like you have found the ultimate field goal attempt. The only problems I see are: keeping the linemen going one yard past the line of scrimmage, getting the ball down for the kick, and the refs not knowing the rule book an obscure part of the rule book and calling it an illegal play. With plenty of practice the first two shouldn't happen should happen and it would definitely be plausible assuming that the "holder" can drop the ball if he can't catch it and that we manage to fool all of the defensive linemen to go towards the QB. Then you would have to cross your fingers for the referees.  

This would truly be a crazy end of the game, and if the kick goes through, an ending for the ages and one of the worst losses imaginable for the losing team.

#9 buffaloboyinATL

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 12:28 PM

View PostICanSleepWhenI, on 11 January 2014 - 01:10 AM, said:

Good wow or bad wow?
Creative, but so much would have to go right for this to work, hence the wow.

#10 ICanSleepWhenI'mDead

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 08:16 PM

View Postangryfan62, on 11 January 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

I don't believe that the "line of scrimmage" actually changes until the end of a play (postive or negative), so if the ball was not heaved back to behind the original line (before the play) the kick would be ruled illegal IMO. Even if it wasn't, isn't someone going to have to catch that backwards pass and hold for the kick? That would be asking one hell of a lot from our O Lineman, or a lot from Carpenter if you are wanting him to "drop kick" it 50+ yds.  . . .
1.  I'm proposing that the ball gets spotted 1/2 yard behind the original line of scrimmage . . rather than 7 yards behind the original line of scrimmage like on a normal field goal try.  That's why the end result of the play is shortening the field goal try by 6.5 yards.

2.  Relying on an OL to catch and spot the ball might be the weakest part of the crazy play, but my intuition says that the right guy could do it.  In the past, we had Jason Peters who was a TE in college, and we also had DE Ryan Denney (sp?) as a receiver on a successful fake punt play, so some lineman-sized guys should have good enough hands.  Maybe Lee Smith playing OT?  If we somehow added a normal holder to the play, the likelihood of the deception working goes down too much.

3.  As for spotting the ball, how hard can that be?  On a normal field goal try, the timing is very important because so many guys are rushing, and even a short delay in spotting the ball can get the kick blocked.  With the crazy play, either the deception works or it doesn't.  If the defense is deceived and thinks they're facing a hail mary pass play, it's at least possible that the defensive players will wind up so far from the "holder" that if the holder can just catch the ball cleanly, he has plenty of time to set it down.  With good enough deception, I could even see Carpenter being able to take extra steps if that lets him kick with more power.

#11 ICanSleepWhenI'mDead

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 08:31 PM

View PostTeen Insight, on 11 January 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

. . . The only problems I see are: keeping the linemen going one yard past the line of scrimmage . . . [and more] . . .
The one yard beyond the line of scrimmage is the exact same rule for pass blocking, so it's not much different from what the OL usually does on a Hail Mary.  So it maintains deception and doesn't require much additional training for 4 of the 5 OL guys.

We would have to rely on deception to get the DL far enough toward the sideline, because if the DL or a MLB doesn't get pulled either deep or to the side our OL couldn't fire downfield to block them.

View Postvincec, on 11 January 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

Check this image out http://cdn.cloudfile...ia_box/HAIL.png for typical defense vs Hail Mary. . . .
Thanks for the diagram.  If a MLB is patrolling the shallow middle and doesn't go either deep or to the sideline, the crazy play would not work.  But if you give the defense a 5 WR look rather than 4 WR and a halfback, would the D still have a MLB guarding the shallow middle?  Seems like maybe not.

#12 JR in Pittsburgh

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 08:52 PM

I love your end of game threads!

I think this is a great idea. A few observations:

1) I wonder if you put a guy like samborn in as center. As a long snapper, I bet he has some experience holding kicks too in the past.

2) does carpenter have to report if you line him up as a RB?

3) what if you start the play in a FG formation, but with your position players in. Then you audible to a Hail Mary formation. That way carpenter is on the field, and the defense thinks you are trying to trick them by audibling, but you are double tricking them.

#13 ICanSleepWhenI'mDead

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 11:23 PM

View PostJR in Pittsburgh, on 11 January 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

I love your end of game threads!

I think this is a great idea. A few observations:

1) I wonder if you put a guy like samborn in as center. As a long snapper, I bet he has some experience holding kicks too in the past.

2) does carpenter have to report if you line him up as a RB?

3) what if you start the play in a FG formation, but with your position players in. Then you audible to a Hail Mary formation. That way carpenter is on the field, and the defense thinks you are trying to trick them by audibling, but you are double tricking them.
1.  Any guy with a jersey number that allows him to play any of the 5 OL positions without having to report to the referee, who also has good enough hands to catch a pass while standing still, would seem to make sense.  Seems to me like the ability to catch a pass would eliminate more OL guys from consideration than the ability to properly place it on the ground after catching it.  If the play is deceptive enough, an extra half second in placing it down won't make much difference - - but if the guy drops the backward pass, it will add so much time to the kick that it would almost certainly kill the play.  If he drops the pass and it rolls more than about 1 yard downfield from the original line of scrimmage, he can't even legally go get it on a kicking play!

2.  It's my understanding that Carpenter could line up anywhere but one of the 5 interior OL positions without having to report to the referee.

3.  The "double trick" is a pretty imaginative wrinkle - - if we ever got coordinator jobs in the NFL we'd probably both get fired after our first game!  :D

Edited by ICanSleepWhenI'mDead, 12 January 2014 - 12:45 AM.


#14 Rubes

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 01:15 PM

So if Carpenter is lined up wide as a receiver, no doubt some defender will be assigned to him. Do you expect after the snap the defender will just let him go and go after the QB on the far side of the play, or would he more likely suspect "trick play!" and stick close to Carpenter? When he sees the ball coming back to the OL for the hold, he just has to touch the holder to end the play, since the ball is beyond the line of scrimmage and, presumably, also touching the ground for the FG attempt.

#15 TallskiWallski83

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 02:41 PM

Ill give you credit for creativity but the success of your play relies entirely on inept defensive play.  Carpenter would obviously be covered by a CB who would trail him across the line of scrimmage to where he would boot the field goal. Also, I find it very unlikely that all downlineman would chase the QB to the opposite sideline without either A. Actually tackling the QB or B. Interfering with the lateral to the snap holder.

I think when you weigh the likelihood of this play working vs the success rate of a hail mary, you'd pick the hail mary


But again, way to think outside the box.

#16 ICanSleepWhenI'mDead

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 02:56 PM

View PostRubes, on 12 January 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

So if Carpenter is lined up wide as a receiver, no doubt some defender will be assigned to him. Do you expect after the snap the defender will just let him go and go after the QB on the far side of the play, or would he more likely suspect "trick play!" and stick close to Carpenter? When he sees the ball coming back to the OL for the hold, he just has to touch the holder to end the play, since the ball is beyond the line of scrimmage and, presumably, also touching the ground for the FG attempt.
If even one defender follows Carpenter all over the field, the play obviously won't work.  Can't say that I know how often the defensive scheme against an expected Hail Mary pass would involve (1) man-to-man coverage assignments against each of 5 WR (plus 3 DL pass rushers plus 3 safeties in zone covering 1/3 of end zone each), versus (2) 3 DL pass rushers plus 8 other defenders all in pretty deep zone coverage.

I would hope that any DB on the field at the start of an expected Hail Mary pass would instinctively react to a suspicion of trickery (even if he didn't know exactly what kind of trick it would be), by dropping deep.  I would hope that the other team's DB coach's primary instruction to his DBs would be - - "Don't let your man get behind you, 'cause that's the only way we lose the game."  But just because I hope those things doesn't make 'em true.

I'll be watching most of the rest of this year's playoff games.  If we get any Hail Mary plays, I'll try to watch whether a DB appears to take each WR man-to-man near the line-of-scrimmage (if the camera crew cooperates).

So how about this modification - - before the snap, have unequal numbers of true WRs swap sides of the formation.  If the DBs flip flop with them, then QB knows there's some man-to-man coverage and audibles to a true Hail Mary.  If the DBs don't swap sides with the WRs (and therefore don't care that you just increased the number of WRs on one side of the field, while decreasing the number of WRs on the other), then run the crazy play.

#17 JR in Pittsburgh

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 04:23 PM

View PostICanSleepWhenI, on 11 January 2014 - 11:23 PM, said:



3.  The "double trick" is a pretty imaginative wrinkle - - if we ever got coordinator jobs in the NFL we'd probably both get fired after our first game!  :D

Haha. These plays have a chance to really fail spectacularly, with people going, "huh?"

#18 ICanSleepWhenI'mDead

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 04:34 PM

Carolina just ran 2 plays in a Hail Mary situation from their own 35 yard line at the end of the 49er game.

On the first, offensive formation was 2 WR each side, with a RB in the backfield.  Defense lined up 3 DL to pass rush, one defender on each side of the field 10 yards downfield from the line of scrimmage (couldn't see jersey numbers, but body type looked like LBs), with everybody else more than 12 yards deep and not in the picture.  At the snap, the 3 DL rushed the passer, all 4 WR and the 2 LBs ran downfield out of the picture, and the RB circled out of the backfield to the short middle.  QB threw an incomplete pass to the far sideline, and at time he made the throw, the only defenders within 20 yards of the line of scrimmage were the 3 DLs.

On the second, offense lined up 3 WR to bottom of screen, 1 WR at the top, and a RB in the backfield.  Defensive lined up 3DL and 1 LB at the line of scrimmage, all of whom rushed the passer.   Four other defenders were in the picture, and seemed to have man coverage assignments against the 4 WR, but they were giving an 8-10 yard cushion at the snap.  Play was a WR screen to the near sideline.  The defender guarding Ginn (the WR who caught the WR screen pass) took two steps back, and didn't come forward until after the QB threw it.

Crazy play probably has a shot against the first defensive formation.  Unclear for the second play, because no way to know where the DB goes if a WR (in the crazy play - Carpenter) had circled into the backfield.