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Florio on the Orton Head Scratcher


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#1 dollars 2 donuts

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 03:36 PM

http://profootballta...ng-their-heads/


I like Florio, but I love how this is not really a "Cowboys got Screwed" thing, but rather a "Bills took the bait", "roll the dice"  "break-glass-in-case-of-emergency" and comments at the end along the lines that there is no real concern if he comes in and isn't ready.

Even if Orton is half asleep this year we upgraded our back-up QB position from what we had and did so with money that we have a lot of.

I know we may have a long history of bad decisions, bu brother, this is not one of them even if some want to twist it that way.

I am sorry if someone else linked to this article and I missed it earlier.  Additionally, Mods please feel free to merge this if you feel it belongs in another thread.

...I read it and couldn't help but post as it bugged me.

Edited by dollars 2 donuts, 04 September 2014 - 03:40 PM.


#2 jr1

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 03:41 PM

Orton's the least of our problems

#3 The Big Cat

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 03:41 PM

What's the going rate for a QB with 70 career starts?

The NFL Network guys called the move "panic" but "prudent."

Explain that.

#4 C.Biscuit97

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 03:45 PM

How the hell is it a panic move? How many backup Qbs where there available with a 81 qb rating? Because that was Lewis'. They thought he was the backup and he struggled mightily so they replaced him. What's the big deal?

#5 filthymcnasty08

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 03:48 PM

Is he better than Fitz?  Yes.  What were we paying Fitz?  Exactly.  OK, he was a starter you say….Would we have paid Fitz more than $5M to stay on as a backup to EJ (Assuming Fitz agrees to a pay reduction)?  You betcha.

Great move Bills, now lets move along!

Edited by filthymcnasty08, 04 September 2014 - 03:49 PM.


#6 C.Biscuit97

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 03:49 PM

View Postfilthymcnasty08, on 04 September 2014 - 03:48 PM, said:

Is he better than Fitz?  Yes.  What were we paying Fitz?  Exactly.  OK, he was a starter you say….Would we have paid Fitz more than $5M to stay on as a backup to EJ?  You betcha.

Great move Bills, now lets move along!

I think Fitz is slightly better but it's very close. And we are spending like 6 million on Qbs. Not a big deal. Seattle's backups make more than their SB winning qb.

#7 Dawgg

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 04:05 PM

View PostC.Biscuit97, on 04 September 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

How the hell is it a panic move?

1. Timing. The Bills failed to secure a viable backup during the offseason, maintaining that they were happy with Tuel and Lewis. This wasn't posturing, either. Their failure to bring in another QB during the draft or address it during free agency suggests that they were happy with what they had. That changed very quickly after Lewis and Tuel's collectively disastrous preseason and camp.

“We’re very happy with Thad Lewis,” said Whaley. “One of the things that Russ Brandon said that John Butler always told him is, in your backup quarterback, you want a guy to go .500. Now, he went 2-3, is that good enough? Obviously not, you’d rather him go 5-0, but we’re very comfortable with him.”
- Doug Whaley during the scouting combine on taking second-hand personnel advice from a marketing executive

2. New ownership situation. Ironic that Whaley's quote of stupidity referenced above was before Ralph Wilson passed away, when his job was iron-clad secure as Russ's hand-picked guy. Once Ralph passed away, the front office realized they can't afford another season of failure -- hence the go-for-broke trade giving up next year's 1st rounder and hence their willingness to pay Orton $5M per year.

3. EJ. The hope was for EJ to make a gigantic leap this season. There's no doubt that this could still happen, but early indications are not good. Numerous reports have suggested veteran players walking into Marrone's office and informing him that EJ is simply not good enough. Failure to address the position would have lost the locker room.

So yes, in my view the Orton signing has panic written all over it.

#8 The Big Cat

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 04:13 PM

View PostDawgg, on 04 September 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

1. Timing. The Bills failed to secure a viable backup during the offseason, maintaining that they were happy with Tuel and Lewis. This wasn't posturing, either. Their failure to bring in another QB during the draft or address it during free agency suggests that they were happy with what they had. That changed very quickly after Lewis and Tuel's collectively disastrous preseason and camp.

“We’re very happy with Thad Lewis,” said Whaley. “One of the things that Russ Brandon said that John Butler always told him is, in your backup quarterback, you want a guy to go .500. Now, he went 2-3, is that good enough? Obviously not, you’d rather him go 5-0, but we’re very comfortable with him.”
- Doug Whaley during the scouting combine on taking second-hand personnel advice from a marketing executive

2. New ownership situation. Ironic that Whaley's quote of stupidity referenced above was before Ralph Wilson passed away, when his job was iron-clad secure as Russ's hand-picked guy. Once Ralph passed away, the front office realized they can't afford another season of failure -- hence the go-for-broke trade giving up next year's 1st rounder and hence their willingness to pay Orton $5M per year.

3. EJ. The hope was for EJ to make a gigantic leap this season. There's no doubt that this could still happen, but early indications are not good. Numerous reports have suggested veteran players walking into Marrone's office and informing him that EJ is simply not good enough. Failure to address the position would have lost the locker room.

So yes, in my view the Orton signing has panic written all over it.

While I don't altogether disagree, could they have possibly done better in their situation.

Could they have done better before entering panic mode?

Kyle Orton, btw, is 20th among active QB's in career starts.

He's higher. Gimmie a sec to figure it out.

Edited by The Big Cat, 04 September 2014 - 04:14 PM.


#9 1billsfan

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 04:19 PM

View Postjr1, on 04 September 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

Orton's the least of our problems

Least of our problems? They haven't even played a game yet...LOL

Can we hold off until after the Chicago game at least?

#10 klos63

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 04:19 PM

Panic or necessary move...., it makes no difference how you interpret it or why the situation came about. It was a move they needed to make and the team is better for it.
So they were wrong about Lewis and Tuel, at least they were able to remedy that. Even the best teams make mistakes with personnel, it's how you react to it is what matters. This is possibly the best outcome we could have hoped for given the dearth of quality QB's available. And from what I've read, the Bills have been in touch with Orton for months, so hardly a panic move.

#11 Dawgg

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 04:21 PM

View PostThe Big Cat, on 04 September 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

Could they have done better before entering panic mode?

Yes. They went out and signed the best QB available today so kudos to them. But to be perfectly fair, that's not very hard to do in this business -- to scan the market, identify the only viable veteran QB on the market and convince him to come to Buffalo by making him the highest-paid backup in the NFL, all without having to spend a single day in training camp. That, anybody on this board can do, if they had the power to write a $5M check.

Far more concerning is this front office's lack of foresight and its inability to assess its own talent. How on earth could Whaley be comfortable with Thad Lewis and Jeff Tuel as his backup options at the most important position in professional sports? A good GM would have had a viable contingency plan in place. EJ could have benefited both last year and this year with a veteran QB in the room.

Instead, EJ was paired with:

1) An offensive coordinator whose last NFL job was in quality control
2) No QB coach
3) 2 backup QBs who have no business on an NFL roster.

And before you say it, the Kevin Kolb injury is no excuse. A viable option should have been identified much earlier than it has.

Edited by Dawgg, 04 September 2014 - 04:22 PM.


#12 Best Player Available

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 04:24 PM

View Postfilthymcnasty08, on 04 September 2014 - 03:48 PM, said:

Is he better than Fitz?  Yes.  What were we paying Fitz?  Exactly.  OK, he was a starter you say….Would we have paid Fitz more than $5M to stay on as a backup to EJ (Assuming Fitz agrees to a pay reduction)?  You betcha.

Great move Bills, now lets move along!
I do not have a link but i seem to remember reading here the offer would have been in the <4.5 mil range.

View Postklos63, on 04 September 2014 - 04:19 PM, said:

Panic or necessary move...., it makes no difference how you interpret it or why the situation came about. It was a move they needed to make and the team is better for it.
So they were wrong about Lewis and Tuel, at least they were able to remedy that. Even the best teams make mistakes with personnel, it's how you react to it is what matters. This is possibly the best outcome we could have hoped for given the dearth of quality QB's available. And from what I've read, the Bills have been in touch with Orton for months, so hardly a panic move.
orton wasn't even released to around july 16

#13 PO'14

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 04:27 PM

Walks in, reads rehashed, boring  comments, walk out!

#14 The Big Cat

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 04:33 PM

Never mind, he is 20th. Assuming Garrard and Kitna aren't counted as "active" players.

5.5 of the 19 active quarterbacks ahead of him are also backups:
  • Hasselbeck
  • Schaub
  • Vick
  • Fitzpatrick
  • Campbell
  • Cassel (he's the half)
That leaves 14 starters with more career starts:
  • Manning
  • Brady
  • Brees
  • Manning
  • Palmer
  • Roethlisberger
  • Rivers
  • Romo
  • Cutler
  • Ryan
  • Flacco
  • Rodgers
  • Smith
  • Stafford
So yeah, given Orton's tenure and the company he keeps, seems to me his contract is quite reasonable.

View PostDawgg, on 04 September 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

Yes. They went out and signed the best QB available today so kudos to them. But to be perfectly fair, that's not very hard to do in this business -- to scan the market, identify the only viable veteran QB on the market and convince him to come to Buffalo by making him the highest-paid backup in the NFL, all without having to spend a single day in training camp. That, anybody on this board can do, if they had the power to write a $5M check.

Far more concerning is this front office's lack of foresight and its inability to assess its own talent. How on earth could Whaley be comfortable with Thad Lewis and Jeff Tuel as his backup options at the most important position in professional sports? A good GM would have had a viable contingency plan in place. EJ could have benefited both last year and this year with a veteran QB in the room.

Instead, EJ was paired with:

1) An offensive coordinator whose last NFL job was in quality control
2) No QB coach
3) 2 backup QBs who have no business on an NFL roster.

And before you say it, the Kevin Kolb injury is no excuse. A viable option should have been identified much earlier than it has.

I'm actually counting three backup quarterbacks with a higher base salary:

http://www.spotrac.c...fl/quarterback/

Prior to their respective TC/PS abortions, all of Bills nation with satisfied with the Tuel/Lewis situation, also.

To say otherwise is revisionist history.

Even if they weren't satisfied (though they were) and they were searching (as you say they should have been), who should they have signed that was available?

#15 billsfan1959

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 04:40 PM

View PostDawgg, on 04 September 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

Yes. They went out and signed the best QB available today so kudos to them. But to be perfectly fair, that's not very hard to do in this business -- to scan the market, identify the only viable veteran QB on the market and convince him to come to Buffalo by making him the highest-paid backup in the NFL, all without having to spend a single day in training camp. That, anybody on this board can do, if they had the power to write a $5M check.

Far more concerning is this front office's lack of foresight and its inability to assess its own talent. How on earth could Whaley be comfortable with Thad Lewis and Jeff Tuel as his backup options at the most important position in professional sports? A good GM would have had a viable contingency plan in place. EJ could have benefited both last year and this year with a veteran QB in the room.

Instead, EJ was paired with:

1) An offensive coordinator whose last NFL job was in quality control
2) No QB coach
3) 2 backup QBs who have no business on an NFL roster.

And before you say it, the Kevin Kolb injury is no excuse. A viable option should have been identified much earlier than it has.
This is pure hindsight. Pretty much everyone thought Thad Lewis would grow into a very competent backup QB this year based on what he did last year. As a matter of fact, there were a number of posters on this board who felt he should be the starting QB. I am not going to fault the FO for believing the same thing based on his progression last year. Nobody expected him to regress in training camp and preseason. Perhaps they could have addressed it a little earlier in the preseason, but when it was clear he and Tuel both had regressed and were not getting better, then they made a change. It was not as if there were a lot of viable options once preseason rolled around.

#16 klos63

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 04:41 PM

View PostBest Player Available, on 04 September 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

I do not have a link but i seem to remember reading here the offer would have been in the <4.5 mil range.

orton wasn't even released to around july 16
ok, so a month and a half.

#17 Augie

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 04:48 PM

View Postbillsfan1959, on 04 September 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:


This is pure hindsight. Pretty much everyone thought Thad Lewis would grow into a very competent backup QB this year based on what he did last year. As a matter of fact, there were a number of posters on this board who felt he should be the starting QB. I am not going to fault the FO for believing the same thing based on his progression last year. Nobody expected him to regress in training camp and preseason. Perhaps they could have addressed it a little earlier in the preseason, but when it was clear he and Tuel both had regressed and were not getting better, then they made a change. It was not as if there were a lot of viable options once preseason rolled around.

I agree with you on the hindsight part. My biggest question (and concern) is why did they regress. Both of them? Is there a problem here that our QB's are going in the wrong direction (even if you argue only Thad, because Tuel is just Tuel and doesn't have the needed arm). What happened?

#18 Ryan L Billz

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 04:55 PM

View Post1billsfan, on 04 September 2014 - 04:19 PM, said:



Least of our problems? They haven't even played a game yet...LOL

Can we hold off until after the Chicago game at least?

This !!!     Doomed by preseason guy x 242 can finally go away this week.

Bring the pain after week 6 like the grownups.      spiller as a kick returner= good field position.







#19 Magox

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 04:57 PM

Let's be real.  It was a panic move. Don't get me wrong, I like the signing of Orton and I happen to believe he is an above average backup QB.  But make no bones about it, Marrone, Whaley and co. are feeling the pressure, they clearly didn't like the way any of the QB's have looked this pre season.  Manuel is on a short leash, if he falters early on, Orton will be the starter before midway through the season.  

Having said that, I hope that Manuel shows marked improvement from last year, if that's the case then I believe this team is primed to surprise.

#20 dave mcbride

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 04:59 PM

View Postbillsfan1959, on 04 September 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

This is pure hindsight. Pretty much everyone thought Thad Lewis would grow into a very competent backup QB this year based on what he did last year. As a matter of fact, there were a number of posters on this board who felt he should be the starting QB. I am not going to fault the FO for believing the same thing based on his progression last year. Nobody expected him to regress in training camp and preseason. Perhaps they could have addressed it a little earlier in the preseason, but when it was clear he and Tuel both had regressed and were not getting better, then they made a change. It was not as if there were a lot of viable options once preseason rolled around.

I can't recall one poster who thought this.

Edited by dave mcbride, 04 September 2014 - 05:00 PM.