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If Sammy Watkins turned in Odell Beckham Jr's performance...


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#21 BarleyNY

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 08:39 PM

 
 
Sammy is the better WR with all things being equal.  Stats don't tell the whole picture, and I don't say that as a Bills fan, I say that as a football fan.  I have no problem saying another player is better than a Bills player.  
 
1.  Sammy plays on the team at the bottom of the league in pass attempts.  OBJ plays on a team that force feeds him the ball and has the single worst stable of RB's in the NFL and almost non existent rushing attack.
2.  Sammy has played 4 less games, but more importantly played at less than 100% in many others as he toughed out injuries and played through them.
3.  Sammy has a better attitude. 
4.  Sammy runs better routes and drops less passes.  
5.  OBJ has a 2 time SB champion and MVP throwing him passes.  Sammy has spent HALF of all of his started games catch passes from EJ and Kyle Orton.  The other half, from a running QB on a run first team who struggles to see the middle of the field.
 
The ONLY negative against Sammy is that he played hurt for the first part of last year and had the foot injury this year.  When healthy he is one of the best WR's in Football.  


Just the same excuses. Sammy might very well be every bit the WR OBJ is if the cards fell differently. But so far he hasn't proved it and ODB has. It's sad seeing people contort themselves like a Bulgarian gymnast to get themselves to believe differently. Sammy will be better than OBJ when he proves he is.

#22 Dirtbag

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 08:43 PM

Obj is getting ripped apart in the media and his own QB, HC, gm kind of throwing shade too

impossible.  that sort of stuff only happens in buffalo.  are you sure it wasn't sully going after obj?



#23 P51

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 09:46 PM

Just the same excuses. Sammy might very well be every bit the WR OBJ is if the cards fell differently. But so far he hasn't proved it and ODB has. It's sad seeing people contort themselves like a Bulgarian gymnast to get themselves to believe differently. Sammy will be better than OBJ when he proves he is.


The whole Sammy vs OBJ argument in general lacks any context and usually ignores reality, the last 9 games last year Watkins was better, also happens he was healthy. Clearly OBJ has not been injured and has been in a better situation offensively from everything from the scheme to the QB throwing the ball to him.

By the way; they are both great IMO.

Trent Dilfer is clearly a better QB than Dan Marino, he won a Super Bowl and "proved it" on the field.... Here's a good idea I saw on this board: trade Sammy Watkins for a 2nd round pick, his "worth"... Watch any tape he's regularly open and not thrown too, he must be aweful, the only thing Sammy has proved is that he is not as healthy at this point in their careers, otherwise the tape says their both great and circumstances overwhelmingly favor OBJ.

p.s. I'm not contorted in anyway right now.

#24 H2o

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 10:01 PM

Odell is an extremely talented wide receiver who is a prima-donna.  I hate the attitude, but love the play.  

TO reincarnate. They will run him out of town when within 2 years and he will spend the rest of his career just like Owens.

#25 mannc

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 10:05 PM

You people crack me up

OBJ: 288 receptions for 4,122 yards and 35 TDs
Watkins: 153 receptions for 2,459 yards and 17 TDs

Only on TSW is this even a point of discussion.  Odell is one of the three top receivers in football and has put up numbers in his first three years in the league that are unprecedented.  If 32 NFL GMs were given the choice between the two, 32 would pick OBJ, despite what he did against the Packers. 


Edited by mannc, 09 January 2017 - 10:06 PM.


#26 dezertbill

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 10:14 PM

Until Sammy catches all those passes, the numbers comparing the tow are what they are. 
 
As for "character and leadership", was that on display when last year he publicly moaned and groaned about not getting enough targets?  And when he told the world "I need the ball at least 10 times -- I need 10 targets -- and l'll be fine with however many yards I get," Watkins told the newspaper. "And that's what I addressed in talking with my agent. We reached out to a couple people and tried to pull some string like, 'Hey, I need my targets. You came up to draft me and I'm not getting targets -- that's a problem.'
"'You're making me look bad, and you're making yourself look bad."
 
Is that the mature selflessness you are alluding to?
 
And how about this year when he made sure that every errant pass his way was rewarded with a hands up/head shake/eye roll? Is that more of a "Larry Fitzgerald" or a "Chad Johnson" that you were referencing?
 
A leader?  This is what Sammy "ranted" about in the locker room at the end of 215 season:
 
"I'm going to step up and talk," Watkins said. "I'm going to make sure things get changed.
 
"We've got the team, the coaches, the staff. We've got to figure it out."
 
"We've got to take over as players," Watkins said. "We can't put everything on the coaches and blame whatever the situation is. We've got to go out and play every week and we've got to demand that from each other and forget the coaches. It's not the coaches' team. It's the players' team. It's player-driven. We've just got to work on ourselves and gain more leaders."
 
 
"We've just got to be disciplined. It's really the penalties on both sides of the ball. I think once we fix the penalties and the little things, we'll be alright on offense. Like I said, it comes with the players. We've got to take more accountability. If we need to watch more film and less practice, that's what we need to do, because everyone needs to know their job and do it full speed."
 
And then, here we have Sammy at the end of this season:
 
"Whatever around the locker room that needs to be addressed, on the field, off the field, flags,  . Whether its working on things in the summer that were not good at and being a professional. As players thats got to get fixed first. Then the coaches have got to be hard on us, not scared of us. Get at us, yell at us, curse at us, whatever to get the player to do that job the best he can thats what they need to do.
 
 
So...from it's not the coach's team it's the players' team and "we've" got to be more disciplined and "accountable" ....
 
to....it's the coaches' fault--they were not tough enough on us and we can't discipline ourselves!
 
Born leader right there.
 
 
 
 

 
 
No, you really can't.  Not credibly.

And didn't he have a string of huge games after commenting about not getting enough touches, which everyone and their mother agreed that you don't Cut your top receiver out of the game plan. That's a leader saying put it on my shoilders and let me lead. Granted as I said due to his youth how he expressed things could have been done differently, but what he said isn't different when what any other number one receiver would say if he was getting cut out of the game plan week after week. If that was OBJ he would have been ranting like a school girl

Yes in 2015 he saw some players like Mario shoot their mouths and In his attempt to step up and take accountability for what was going on said that needed to stop and players needed to be accountable. Thank you for backing up my point.

This past season from Darius to McCoy to Lorenzo Alexander who is a respected pro everyone spoke about how Ryan was laxed and created a culture that "needed to change". Sammy is just backing up what they said and goes even further to say if someone isn't performing cut them. Doesn't matter whether they are first round pick or free agent. He is saying that means him too. He isn't holding himself to a different standard. He is a team player. He is holding everyone including himself accountable. That's shows traits of leadership.

So when Tom Brady and Peyton Mannimg shows visible frustration with their teammates by screaming or rolling their eyes when they don't do their job on the field its ok. Yet when Sammy does it he's considered immature?

As I said, Sammy has the TRAITS to be a great leader. It's going to take time and experience for that to fully develop but yes he has eveybit the mindset to be a Larry Fitzgerald type player.

And yes, There is a difference between being on the field and demanding more from your teammates than the clown act OBJ performs each week. It's all about him and the spotlight. Whether it's the kicking net, personal fouls for celebrating or retaliating, or a boat in Miami.

As time goes on any betting man would agree Sammy has the attitude and mental wherewithal to be a great leader for this team. Way more than OBJ. Is Sammy there yet, no. But I don't hold it against him for trying to step up when no one was in 2015 or making it clear that the culture needed to change after Ryan was let go. And I don't hold it against him for saying what he said because the spirit of his comments were to help the team perform better and win, even the comments about not getting enough targets. You won't win many games when you cut players like McCoy and Watkins out of the game plan. Plenty of games proved that.

As time goes on hell be more polished. And yes he will be the leader of this team.

Edited by dezertbill, 09 January 2017 - 10:18 PM.


#27 Billsfan1972

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 06:38 AM

Only on TSW is this even a point of discussion.  Odell is one of the three top receivers in football and has put up numbers in his first three years in the league that are unprecedented.  If 32 NFL GMs were given the choice between the two, 32 would pick OBJ, despite what he did against the Packers. 

No, only on TSW are people continually whining about the 2014 draft in 2017, where the GM swung for the fences, drafted a star who has performed and is exactly as advertised when the ball is thrown to him (and film also shows open on multiple pass plays and the QB & OC looks elsewhere).

 

Yes some injuries, but it is obvious to all that a QB who targets him 8-10X/game as all top receivers are, and an injury free year and his #'s will match or exceed OBJ's......



#28 jr1

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 06:44 AM

Eli's lack of mobility makes the passing game easier to defend 



#29 papazoid

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 07:02 AM

all of OBJ bad games have come in cold weather.....guess those tacky gloves don't work the same

#30 Webster Guy

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 07:05 AM

You people crack me up

OBJ: 288 receptions for 4,122 yards and 35 TDs
Watkins: 153 receptions for 2,459 yards and 17 TDs

On how many targets?

Wait I looked it up. 274 to 458
So Sammy is 8.9 yards per target and beckham is 9 yards. Wow. Huge difference.

Edited by Webster Guy, 10 January 2017 - 07:11 AM.


#31 Billsfan1972

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 07:17 AM

Eli's lack of mobility makes the passing game easier to defend 

And he somehow manages to target OBJ 10+X's/game and throw for 4,400 & 4,000 yards the last two years.

 

However neither were particularly great years, but the one thing the coaching staff an d Eli did was ensure Beckham gets his targets.  

 

Not a difficult game plan to  ensure your best receiver is thrown the ball.


On how many targets?

OBJ 132+159+169=460

SW   128+95+52=275

 

Difference was 2014 Orton through so many away (in SW's direction) that Watkins caught only 65 of them 51%, whereas OBJ caught 91 of 132 (69%).  



#32 bmur66

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 08:26 AM

Yea. Anyone that wears boots on a yacht can't be right 



#33 Mr. WEO

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 11:36 AM

And didn't he have a string of huge games after commenting about not getting enough touches, which everyone and their mother agreed that you don't Cut your top receiver out of the game plan. That's a leader saying put it on my shoilders and let me lead. Granted as I said due to his youth how he expressed things could have been done differently, but what he said isn't different when what any other number one receiver would say if he was getting cut out of the game plan week after week. If that was OBJ he would have been ranting like a school girl

Yes in 2015 he saw some players like Mario shoot their mouths and In his attempt to step up and take accountability for what was going on said that needed to stop and players needed to be accountable. Thank you for backing up my point.

This past season from Darius to McCoy to Lorenzo Alexander who is a respected pro everyone spoke about how Ryan was laxed and created a culture that "needed to change". Sammy is just backing up what they said and goes even further to say if someone isn't performing cut them. Doesn't matter whether they are first round pick or free agent. He is saying that means him too. He isn't holding himself to a different standard. He is a team player. He is holding everyone including himself accountable. That's shows traits of leadership.

So when Tom Brady and Peyton Mannimg shows visible frustration with their teammates by screaming or rolling their eyes when they don't do their job on the field its ok. Yet when Sammy does it he's considered immature?

As I said, Sammy has the TRAITS to be a great leader. It's going to take time and experience for that to fully develop but yes he has eveybit the mindset to be a Larry Fitzgerald type player.

And yes, There is a difference between being on the field and demanding more from your teammates than the clown act OBJ performs each week. It's all about him and the spotlight. Whether it's the kicking net, personal fouls for celebrating or retaliating, or a boat in Miami.

As time goes on any betting man would agree Sammy has the attitude and mental wherewithal to be a great leader for this team. Way more than OBJ. Is Sammy there yet, no. But I don't hold it against him for trying to step up when no one was in 2015 or making it clear that the culture needed to change after Ryan was let go. And I don't hold it against him for saying what he said because the spirit of his comments were to help the team perform better and win, even the comments about not getting enough targets. You won't win many games when you cut players like McCoy and Watkins out of the game plan. Plenty of games proved that.

As time goes on hell be more polished. And yes he will be the leader of this team.

 

 

This is the easiest question to answer.  "Yes".  Sammy hasn't earned the right to complain about his team mate's performance.  When he's accomplished a fraction of what Brady and Manning have, maybe he can have his little on field tantrums.  Leaders can bark at those they are leading.  Watkins isn't a leader.  He would lead better by keeping his complaints to himself and playing every week.

 

Sammy's end of season outbursts from 2015 to 2016 are like night and day.  Last year he preached player accountability.  This year he says it's the coaches' fault for not making veteran professional adult men more "disciplined".  And he did this to the press--not behind closed doors with his colleagues.  A leader doesn't say "we need a Daddy".

 

At what point in his career did Larry Fitzgerald say that? 



#34 Ryan L Billz

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 11:39 AM

On how many targets?
Wait I looked it up. 274 to 458
So Sammy is 8.9 yards per target and beckham is 9 yards. Wow. Huge difference.


Amen. Health will come around and Watkins will be paired w a strong qb.

The summer of Odell will have many meltdowns.

#35 CountDorkula

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 11:39 AM

Just the same excuses. Sammy might very well be every bit the WR OBJ is if the cards fell differently. But so far he hasn't proved it and ODB has. It's sad seeing people contort themselves like a Bulgarian gymnast to get themselves to believe differently. Sammy will be better than OBJ when he proves he is.

Or when he has Eli Manning throwing him the ball and not Ej Manuel.....



#36 DriveFor1Outta5

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 11:45 AM

 
 
This is the easiest question to answer.  "Yes".  Sammy hasn't earned the right to complain about his team mate's performance.  When he's accomplished a fraction of what Brady and Manning have, maybe he can have his little on field tantrums.  Leaders can bark at those they are leading.  Watkins isn't a leader.  He would lead better by keeping his complaints to himself and playing every week.
 
Sammy's end of season outbursts from 2015 to 2016 are like night and day.  Last year he preached player accountability.  This year he says it's the coaches' fault for not making veteran professional adult men more "disciplined".  And he did this to the press--not behind closed doors with his colleagues.  A leader doesn't say "we need a Daddy".
 
At what point in his career did Larry Fitzgerald say that? 

I agree. All the talk that Beckham is a diva while Sammy isn't is something I don't understand. If Sammy had half the success in the NFL that OBJ has had maybe he would be a big diva too. We really can't tell because it's comparing apples to oranges. Sammy plays in Buffalo while OBJ has become a superstar playing in New York. Sammy isn't under the same spotlight that OBJ is. Sammy doesn't have to deal with the NY media either. Honestly I don't see how the trip made OBJ drop those passes either. I'm sure if the Bills had a playoff game our players would spend the entire week studying or maybe doing Hail Marys at church. Seems like much ado over nothing if you ask me. Big time receivers generally are divas.

Edited by DriveFor1Outta5, 10 January 2017 - 11:46 AM.


#37 FireChan

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 11:51 AM

 
 
This is the easiest question to answer.  "Yes".  Sammy hasn't earned the right to complain about his team mate's performance.  When he's accomplished a fraction of what Brady and Manning have, maybe he can have his little on field tantrums.  Leaders can bark at those they are leading.  Watkins isn't a leader.  He would lead better by keeping his complaints to himself and playing every week.
 
Sammy's end of season outbursts from 2015 to 2016 are like night and day.  Last year he preached player accountability.  This year he says it's the coaches' fault for not making veteran professional adult men more "disciplined".  And he did this to the press--not behind closed doors with his colleagues.  A leader doesn't say "we need a Daddy".
 
At what point in his career did Larry Fitzgerald say that? 


What? Are you trying to tell that Sammy Watkins, a WR with only one 1000 yard season under his belt, isn't in the conversation with Brady and Manning, two QB's with double digit playoff wins, 6 Super Bowl rings, and almost all all-time and single season records between them?

Crazy. He's basically the WR equivalent of two HoF QB's.

#38 YoloinOhio

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 11:59 AM

MMQB: No Longer Bending Over Backwards for Beckham

The Giants finally put their foot down and told Odell Beckham Jr. to grow up. Will he change, or will the edict ring hollow like the wall he punched?
http://mmqb.si.com/m...new-york-giants

Edited by YoloinOhio, 10 January 2017 - 12:00 PM.


#39 uticaclub

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 12:03 PM

We just would be happy to make the playoffs



#40 DriveFor1Outta5

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 12:04 PM

MMQB: No Longer Bending Over Backwards for Beckham

The Giants finally put their foot down and told Odell Beckham Jr. to grow up. Will he change, or will the edict ring hollow like the wall he punched?
http://mmqb.si.com/m...new-york-giants

The guy seems like a loose cannon, but at least he showed some passion by going crazy post game. That's a lot more than I can say for this Bills team.