Jump to content


Photo

Did Anybody Hear Ross Tucker This Morning? ( Re Tyrod/Jones)


  • Please log in to reply
116 replies to this topic

#41 H2o

H2o

    2017 - Offseason is the Season of Hope

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,695 posts

Posted 13 February 2017 - 07:27 PM

Drew Bledsoe in 2004 was a worse player than Tyrod Taylor of 2016. I'm not sure that can even be debated. Bledsoe played a great 8 games in 2002 but really wasn't a great QB since like 1997.

Stats wise? Yes. As far as being a better QB? No. Bledsoe was a better QB than Tyrod. Tyrod is the superior athlete. It was also a different league back then. Different rules and different schemes. The game as a whole was different just 12 years ago.

#42 Kirby Jackson

Kirby Jackson

    All Pro

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,025 posts

Posted 13 February 2017 - 07:38 PM

Stats wise? Yes. As far as being a better QB? No. Bledsoe was a better QB than Tyrod. Tyrod is the superior athlete. It was also a different league back then. Different rules and different schemes. The game as a whole was different just 12 years ago.

No, Tyrod impacted the game (and had far superior stats) in 2016 to Bledsoe in 2004. Bledsoe's 1st 8 games in Buffalo were great but he really was an average to below average QB since about 1997. He made a TON of mistakes and didnt make a ton of plays to offset it. 2004 Drew Bledsoe was not a good QB by any metric. He wasn't good in 2003 either. He averaged about 185 yards a game with 32 TDs and 28 picks in 2003-2004. TT over the last 2 years has 47 TDs and 12 INTs and averages about 249 yards a game. Tyrod did that over 29 games vs. 32 for Bledsoe. We tend to remember people better in hindsight but Bledsoe was not good at all in 2003-2004.

Edited by Kirby Jackson, 13 February 2017 - 07:48 PM.


#43 Alphadawg7

Alphadawg7

    WATKINS!!!!!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,401 posts

Posted 13 February 2017 - 08:40 PM

No, Tyrod impacted the game (and had far superior stats) in 2016 to Bledsoe in 2004. Bledsoe's 1st 8 games in Buffalo were great but he really was an average to below average QB since about 1997. He made a TON of mistakes and didnt make a ton of plays to offset it. 2004 Drew Bledsoe was not a good QB by any metric. He wasn't good in 2003 either. He averaged about 185 yards a game with 32 TDs and 28 picks in 2003-2004. TT over the last 2 years has 47 TDs and 12 INTs and averages about 249 yards a game. Tyrod did that over 29 games vs. 32 for Bledsoe. We tend to remember people better in hindsight but Bledsoe was not good at all in 2003-2004.

 

I have to agree with you on this.  Up until Tyrod, it was pretty easy to look back and say Bledsoe was probably the best QB we had since Kelly.  Even that was an arguable statement, but still felt comfortable to assume.  His biggest issue when he was a Bill was that he had become a statue in the pocket at that point in his career and was not good at avoiding of feeling the rush/pressure and really needed a stoic OL to give him time to operate.  

 

TT has been vastly the most effective QB we have had since Kelly.  We could do a lot worse than him and have done a lot worse for 17 years.  In the era of Madden games, Fantasy Football, scoring friendly NFL rules...fans have become enamored with the shiny object of passing yards and lost all sight to the core of winning in the NFL and that is scoring more than your opponent.  The people mostly against TT are fixated on one singular stat...passing yard ranking.  They completely disregard how much he produces on the ground, how the threat of him running vastly impacts the overall run game for our RBs, helps our WRs etc.  

 

Also...to add to your point Kirby, look at what TT has faced the last 2 years on his way to those 47 TDs and only 12 INT's:

 

1.  Two different OC's in 2 seasons.  Not to mention, he has had 3 OC's over the last 3 seasons and now is going to have his 4th in last 4 seasons regardless to where he plays this year.

2.  Injuries to his best OL, WRs, RB's, TE, etc and rarely played a game where the offense was in tact.

3.  Has less than 2 full seasons under his belt in games started.

4.  Dealt with his own injuries both seasons and played through them for the most part.

5.  Played on a "run first" team and had the LEAST amount of pass attempts in the NFL despite still accounting for 47 TD's in 2 years.

 

So lets see where the TT led offense stacks up historically in this franchise to further your point how he is better than Bledsoe was here:

 

- 2016 Bills were the 7th highest scoring team in Bills history, 1 point away from being tied for 5th place.

- Had TT played week 17, they would have easily been 5th all time as they only needed to score 2 more points to do so.

- Had TT played week 17 and we scored 20 points, this team would have been 4th all time.  If we scored 32 we would have been 3rd all time.  If we scored 39 we would have been 2nd all time.  Against that bad Jets team, with TT starting we could have easily scored at least 20, good shot at 32 and could have possibly hit 39. 

- The 2 years with TT are the highest scoring 2 years in Buffalo history outside the 4 SB runs.  And TT led Bills this year outscored that 4th Bills SB run team.

 

Yet this kids biggest issue is not taking enough chances.  He's been very efficient in the turnover department, almost to a fault though.  What keeps getting overlooked is how productive through the air he and Sammy are when Sammy has been at full health.  Get this kid another reliable receiving weapon (no Robert Woods is not that guy) next to a healthy Sammy and the passing game will look different to say the least.  Combine that with an almost certainly improved defense with Rex bad system gone, Dareus here all year, Rags and Shaq back healthy to start the season, and improvements at Safety via draft/FA and this team is more than capable of making the playoffs and even being competitive in the post season.  



#44 H2o

H2o

    2017 - Offseason is the Season of Hope

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,695 posts

Posted 13 February 2017 - 08:44 PM

No, Tyrod impacted the game (and had far superior stats) in 2016 to Bledsoe in 2004. Bledsoe's 1st 8 games in Buffalo were great but he really was an average to below average QB since about 1997. He made a TON of mistakes and didnt make a ton of plays to offset it. 2004 Drew Bledsoe was not a good QB by any metric. He wasn't good in 2003 either. He averaged about 185 yards a game with 32 TDs and 28 picks in 2003-2004. TT over the last 2 years has 47 TDs and 12 INTs and averages about 249 yards a game. Tyrod did that over 29 games vs. 32 for Bledsoe. We tend to remember people better in hindsight but Bledsoe was not good at all in 2003-2004.

Like I said, the game was different then. Our defense was really good in those years. Regardless of the Tyrod\Bledsoe debate, the fact remains that Tyrod is what he is. He is inconsistent, wildly inaccurate at times, has trouble reading defenses, he's not clutch, he doesn't throw his guys open, he'll tuck and run even with a clean pocket, doesn't use the middle of the field, and misses seeing open targets. That's exactly who he has been for the last two years and that is exactly who he will be. He will make some flashy plays with his legs and throw one hell of ball, but he will never carry the team with his arm at any point like we need him to at times.

Edited by H2o, 13 February 2017 - 08:45 PM.


#45 Kirby Jackson

Kirby Jackson

    All Pro

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,025 posts

Posted 13 February 2017 - 08:54 PM

Like I said, the game was different then. Our defense was really good in those years. Regardless of the Tyrod\Bledsoe debate, the fact remains that Tyrod is what he is. He is inconsistent, wildly inaccurate at times, has trouble reading defenses, he's not clutch, he doesn't throw his guys open, he'll tuck and run even with a clean pocket, doesn't use the middle of the field, and misses seeing open targets. That's exactly who he has been for the last two years and that is exactly who he will be. He will make some flashy plays with his legs and throw one hell of ball, but he will never carry the team with his arm at any point like we need him to at times.

There isn't a world where a 1:1 TD to INT ratio is as good as a 4:1. That has nothing to do with eras and everything to do with a superior level of play. No need to prop up Bledsoe to downplay Taylor. I think that your post is fair and reasoned here. I think that your reservations about him moving forward are legit.

Tyrod being who he is and Bledsoe being better are two different things. I wasn't responding to what to do this offseason. I was responding to the assertion that 2004 Drew Bledsoe was better than 2016 Tyrod Taylor. Too often assertions like that are made to strengthen our stance on TT one way or another. The facts tell a different story.

#46 HoF Watkins

HoF Watkins

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,100 posts

Posted 13 February 2017 - 08:55 PM

He told of how he was on the Bills when they dumped Bledsoe and went with Losman. He went on to say that the best players on the team were furious and virtually quit on the team. They knew that there was no chance to win with Losman.

He also said that players such as Incog, Glenn, Wood, and others would do the same if Whaley cuts Tyrod and goes with CJ.

He went on to list several dumb moves by Whaley (letting go of Hogan, drafting EJ Manuel and other stupid moves). He is NOT impressed with Whaley, nor am I.

I guess any time a Bills Fan thinks that it can't get worse with this team, reality smacks us in the face.

I for one hope that we keep Tyrod and fire Whaley, who is a rank amateur and a sub-par joke of a GM. I do however hope that he keeps us posted with fashion tips. He sure knows how to dress (and destroy a football team).

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

This team won't be a contender for 3 or 4 years at best (I don't mean they can't make the playoffs, I mean real contenders). Incog, Wood, they will never be on a true contender Bills team. Most likely, Kyle Williams will never play in a playoff game for the Bills. So I don't care what those guys think.

 

This team is a mess.



#47 H2o

H2o

    2017 - Offseason is the Season of Hope

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,695 posts

Posted 13 February 2017 - 09:09 PM

There isn't a world where a 1:1 TD to INT ratio is as good as a 4:1. That has nothing to do with eras and everything to do with a superior level of play. No need to prop up Bledsoe to downplay Taylor. I think that your post is fair and reasoned here. I think that your reservations about him moving forward are legit.

Tyrod being who he is and Bledsoe being better are two different things. I wasn't responding to what to do this offseason. I was responding to the assertion that 2004 Drew Bledsoe was better than 2016 Tyrod Taylor. Too often assertions like that are made to strengthen our stance on TT one way or another. The facts tell a different story.

Yes, I agree that Tyrod's stats are better than the last couple with Drew. Do I believe that Tyrod is a better QB than Drew was? Not by any means. Tyrod is a superior athlete which allows him to do things Drew could not. Comparing a running QB to a pure pocket passer can't really be done. Tyrod does have the better "stats" though.

#48 Kirby Jackson

Kirby Jackson

    All Pro

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,025 posts

Posted 13 February 2017 - 09:17 PM

Yes, I agree that Tyrod's stats are better than the last couple with Drew. Do I believe that Tyrod is a better QB than Drew was? Not by any means. Tyrod is a superior athlete which allows him to do things Drew could not. Comparing a running QB to a pure pocket passer can't really be done. Tyrod does have the better "stats" though.

I certainly believe that this version of Tyrod Taylor is a better QB than the 2003-2004 Drew Bledsoe. I don't even think it's close. What did Bledsoe do better? He completed a lower percentage, turned it over WAY more often, lower ypa, less yards, sacked more often, WAY less TDs and that doesn't account for Tyrod's 1,000 plus yards and 10 TDs on the ground. What is it that Bledsoe did better? There literally isn't ANYTHING that supports 2003-2004 Bledsoe over 2015-2016 Tyrod Taylor.

#49 ALF

ALF

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,747 posts

Posted 13 February 2017 - 09:27 PM

I just wonder if the story that Whaley wanted Hue Jackson with Schwartz as DC rather then Rex is true.

 

Rex destroyed a playoff caliber D

 

If that were true , I would trust Whaley



#50 liverpoolkev

liverpoolkev

    Practice Squad

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 174 posts

Posted 13 February 2017 - 09:51 PM

 

I actually like Whaley, but I think Whaley would be making a colossal mistake letting TT go this year.  He is going to lose the support of the vets like you said because it will a signal of blowing it up and rebuilding rather than looking to get this team to the next step.  This team was one of the top scoring teams in the NFL with TT at the helm and while dealing with critical injuries to our best playmakers on offense.  I just can't see how the best direction of this team is abandoning TT for a raw Cardale who didn't show anything close to ready in week 17, or a QB in this marginal QB class at best.  

 

In a speculative note as well...the possibility of being able to trade up next year for a guy like Sam from USC could be in play.  I mean looking across the NFL, the odds are someone like Cleveland or SF will probably end up with the first pick next year anyway, those rosters are pretty bad...but both are expected to go after a QB of the future in this draft (Cleveland I think actually fills it with Jimmy G).  So trading up to their pick could be feasible (although expensive) and they may not be looking to grab a QB just like how the Rams traded out of their pick to Washington for RG3 because they felt they had their guy of the future already.

 

Bottom line:  If the Bills take a QB in first 2 rounds and have gotten rid of Taylor...i will hate the decision.  But, that being said, I will root for the kid hard to succeed and prove the move worthy...unlike others around here who just root for certain players to fail so they can be right about their agenda.

Whaley could care less about this group. They should have played better . If everyone agree that Tyrod is not worth 27 mil then you go with the prospects  on your roster.  Not go grab projects to make fans happy this crap about Romo or MaCarron need to stop that's crap your good ole boys GM's would drum up that why we been putrid for 14 yrs Levy, Butler, Donohue and  Buddy Nix picking & binging in crazy crap. I didn't hear anyone say fire them.  We finally have a staff that  Whaley envisioned from his Pittsburg days  like Tomlin we have  in Mcdermitt  a no nonsense intelligent coach who brought a staff of teachers.   

 

  As for Kyle Williams who has been part of the losing his whole career I have no problem with him retiring or buffalo trading him. Its time for his 8 mil cap hit to come off the books. This is a very strong defensive draft that is where the focus should be.   They should go hard after Pryor III and Josh Gordan why because they are play makers and will come cheaper than paying the free agent WR we have on roster.    


Edited by liverpoolkev, 13 February 2017 - 09:53 PM.


#51 PolishDave

PolishDave

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,649 posts

Posted 13 February 2017 - 10:14 PM

He told of how he was on the Bills when they dumped Bledsoe and went with Losman. He went on to say that the best players on the team were furious and virtually quit on the team. They knew that there was no chance to win with Losman.

He also said that players such as Incog, Glenn, Wood, and others would do the same if Whaley cuts Tyrod and goes with CJ.

He went on to list several dumb moves by Whaley (letting go of Hogan, drafting EJ Manuel and other stupid moves). He is NOT impressed with Whaley, nor am I.

I guess any time a Bills Fan thinks that it can't get worse with this team, reality smacks us in the face.

I for one hope that we keep Tyrod and fire Whaley, who is a rank amateur and a sub-par joke of a GM. I do however hope that he keeps us posted with fashion tips. He sure knows how to dress (and destroy a football team).

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great post and great point.  :thumbsup:

 

You brought up another really important point that hasn't been talked about enough here - the QB decision's impact on the rest of the squad.  So true and so important.



#52 bobobonators

bobobonators

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,383 posts

Posted 13 February 2017 - 10:17 PM

Looking back, that was a pretty hostile/ rough situation for Losman to be put in.
And in typical Billsy fashion, when faced with adversity just implode.

#53 dave mcbride

dave mcbride

    All Pro

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,353 posts

Posted 13 February 2017 - 10:28 PM

Stats wise? Yes. As far as being a better QB? No. Bledsoe was a better QB than Tyrod. Tyrod is the superior athlete. It was also a different league back then. Different rules and different schemes. The game as a whole was different just 12 years ago.


Outside of his first 8 games with the Bills, Bledsoe was a garbage player the rest of his time in Buffalo. He was awful in the final 8 games in 2002 as well - 8 tds/10 tds and he cost us winnable games like the one in green bay with his terrible play. He was dreadful in 03 and a mediocre game manager in 04 who benefitted by playing an awful schedule. However, he was a significantly better player than Losman.

Edited by dave mcbride, 13 February 2017 - 10:29 PM.


#54 ScottLaw

ScottLaw

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,396 posts

Posted 13 February 2017 - 10:29 PM

 
True, Tyrod is much better.
 
But the Cowboys and Bills basically flipped success levels in 2005 when Parcells took Bledsoe in and installed him as his QB in Dallas.
 
Tanking coming off of a 6-10 2004 season wasn't an option in Parcells mind......even though the Cowboys still weren't that talented.
 
Though Drew was just a 1.5 year bridge that success helped set the stage for Tony Romo and by 2007 they were the #1 seed in the NFC playoffs.
 
If the Bills had gone 9-7 again in 2005 perhaps Donahoe and Mularkey settle in and something gets established here.......perhaps nothing great but what followed really sent the organization into a tailspin.


Parcells is also a hall of fame coach.

I think the Bills lack of success in 2005 was a combination of Pat Williams departing ALONG with giving the reigns to Losman as opposed to a veteran like Kelly Holcomb. I would've took Holcomb over Bledsoe in 2005.

#55 Coach Tuesday

Coach Tuesday

    All Pro

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,260 posts

Posted 13 February 2017 - 10:34 PM

I think we had better figure out whether 2003 Bledsoe was better than 2016 Tyrod. It's very important.

#56 offsides#76FredSmerlas

offsides#76FredSmerlas

    Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 386 posts

Posted 13 February 2017 - 10:49 PM

By most experts he really wasn't, but apparently he was to our guys!
Mayock had him 41st overall, 2nd QB (link)
Walter Football (yeah, I know) had him 85th overall, 6th QB (link)
NFLDraftScout didn't have him in their top 100, which included 7 other QBs (link)
Dan Kadar had him 99th overall, 7th QB (link)


I guess this makes Whaley smarter than all the experts because even though EJ has had a bad career he still has done better than the guy the Giants and Jets drafted. He in my opinion sucks but I would still take him over those other two bums.

#57 DirtDart

DirtDart

    RFA

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 621 posts

Posted 13 February 2017 - 10:57 PM

But if we cut Tyrod and go with Jones, its a rebuild at that point, because no one thinks CJ gives us the best chance at winning games next season.

I think that if we see TT cut, the message to the team is clear: See whoever is left in 2018. Because we arent in a position to 'win now' without Tyrod (and most feel that we arent even if we keep him, but its our best shot).

The slim hope would be a rookie QB who steps in and kills it. But as you said, most of the Vets will have checked out by that point (and what are the odds Whaley picks him?)

Tie Rod gives us the same chance. Are you all blind? Can't wait for someone to post some irrelevant fancy stats.

These players have actually relayed this to him?

Edited by DirtDart, 13 February 2017 - 10:58 PM.


#58 jeffismagic

jeffismagic

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,937 posts

Posted 13 February 2017 - 11:07 PM

Oh no. These great veterans that led us to a brilliant 7-9 finish and have bombed every time their number was called year after year. That's why it's time to ship out the old and build a team that can win.



#59 DirtDart

DirtDart

    RFA

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 621 posts

Posted 13 February 2017 - 11:07 PM

Regarding Bledsoe, he SUCKED his last year here. The receivers were relegated to running short dig routes because he couldn't hit anything else.
We are not going to the SB with TT and KW is never going to see a SB here and probably not a playoff.
I've watched McDermott here ( Carolina) since he started and I don't hate him but his defenses aren't all that.
This is a rebuilding year and I'd rather see a young QB learn on the fly than Orton or Taylor keep us mediocre.

This...god knows we need the cap space to bring in some missing pieces. Tie Rod gives us the same as the last two years, early Tee times.

#60 Thurman#1

Thurman#1

    Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,760 posts

Posted 13 February 2017 - 11:11 PM

He told of how he was on the Bills when they dumped Bledsoe and went with Losman. He went on to say that the best players on the team were furious and virtually quit on the team. They knew that there was no chance to win with Losman.

He also said that players such as Incog, Glenn, Wood, and others would do the same if Whaley cuts Tyrod and goes with CJ.

He went on to list several dumb moves by Whaley (letting go of Hogan, drafting EJ Manuel and other stupid moves). He is NOT impressed with Whaley, nor am I.

I guess any time a Bills Fan thinks that it can't get worse with this team, reality smacks us in the face.

I for one hope that we keep Tyrod and fire Whaley, who is a rank amateur and a sub-par joke of a GM. I do however hope that he keeps us posted with fashion tips. He sure knows how to dress (and destroy a football team).

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

If the best players "virtually quit on the team," they weren't the best players. The good ones play their best because that's who they are. Give up hope on the team, yeah, plenty of people in bad situations lose hope. But the good ones still give everything they have.

 

And yeah, the team would have much less of a chance to win without Tyrod than with him. NEXT YEAR. And the players should really care about that. But the team management should be looking past it. Their primary focus should be long-term, towards the years when they will actually have a real chance to compete for a championship. Nothing else matters. The players shouldn't be caring about the salary cap. The front office should.

 

I've got no problem with them letting Tyrod go if they do so. It might mean a game or two next year. I don't care.

 

Tucker has often talked about this story before. And one difference between then and now is that the defenses in 2003 and 2004 were terrific, so the team felt they had a real chance to compete. Which IMHO they didn't after Bledsoe lost most of his movement skills to age. But again, you want the players thinking they do have a chance and fighting for it, even if it's not realistic. You don't want the FO kidding themselves in the same way. They should look at things coldly, logically, realistically.

 

About your problems with Whaley, I really agree with most of them. I didn't want him back. Not worth worrying about decisions in the past at this point, though.


Edited by Thurman#1, 13 February 2017 - 11:28 PM.