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SI.com Andy Benoit - Bills biggest need is to replace Tyrod


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#21 Big C

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 07:45 PM

Although there are opposite views on TT on whether to keep him or not there is a major consensus that he is not the long term answer at qb. 

 

But I think the question is do we keep TT and work on a seamless transition to a draftee in the next couple years, find a different vet instead or draft a guy to be week 1 starter. As it stands I don't really see the tanking option as a real option right now.



#22 bobobonators

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 07:48 PM

 
This. Keeping TT actually hurts our chances at keeping Watkins.
 
 
One could argue that throwing a good deep ball and ball velocity are not mutually exclusive. The ability to place a ball deep does not rely solely on the speed of the football. Sure, you have to have a certain threshold velocity (50 mph is not awful but was the worst of all QBs in the 2011 draft class) to actually get a throw down the field, but a slower velocity may result in the ball taking an extra tenth of a second to get there and giving CBs a little longer to make a play. My bigger grip with TT's velocity is that he will try to gun the ball to wide open people in the flat at times when it's not necessary. 


Ok. Watkins should focus on playing an entire season. when Sammy was mostly healthy in 2015 he lit it up with TT. Not sure why anyone thinks he wouldnt want TT.

#23 YoloinOhio

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 07:50 PM

Which one is the tanking option? I don't see the Bills winning many games at all this year if Taylor is the same QB we've seen the last two years (unfortunately).

Though I have seen people here who feel he's a good fit for the Dennison offense. Based on what I saw in Denver with Dennison/Kubiak I have a hard time understanding that but if anyone can chime in that knows more, great. Just casually watched the Broncos last couple years.

Edited by YoloinOhio, 13 February 2017 - 07:52 PM.


#24 JohnC

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 07:51 PM

 

But I think the question is do we keep TT and work on a seamless transition to a draftee in the next couple years, find a different vet instead or draft a guy to be week 1 starter. As it stands I don't really see the tanking option as a real option right now.

I agree. My recommendation is to keep him and draft a qb this year with a high pick. The tanking option is an absurd position to take. As it stands you can turn over a third of your roster with the normal player movement from one season to the next. Cleaning house to start over makes little sense because if you do that it would set you back even further. 



#25 zonabb

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 07:54 PM

The fact there there is a debate is enough to know its time to walk away. In two seasons, did he get even slightly better after his years as a backup? Those that want to interject their hatred of Ryan into the argument to imply he didn't coach him properly fail to remember, Ryan didn't make inaccurate throws not even get the ball to open receivers. That's on TT. A player in any system has to execute, this is an execution league and QB is the most important execution position. TT has many issues that Benoit pointed and that many former TT supports now include on their lists of reasons TT is not the guy. 

 

I think the debate comes down to one word: mediocre, followed by one crippling question at OBD: "Do we risk drafting a project from this class or roll the dice with Cardale Jones and potentially go backwards or do we accept the limits of mediocrity and stick with TT and potentially sneak into the playoffs and play one game, assuming all else improves?"

 

This is the same question for fans. It's a monster financial risk to keep him around knowing he's hit the ceiling, hard. 

 

I think the powers at OBD know this is a mediocre QB who absolutely cannot win you a game by himself like, uh, that guy from NE did last week completing 27 of his final 33 to take over and win the SB. 

 

If you honestly think this is a SB caliber QB, I don't have much to offer. Seeing all the younger QBs in this league and the guy who seems to not be dropping off in NE, are you willing to keep Taylor as your ticket to an AFC Championship with the old gaurd SB winners still around (Brady, Roethlisberger, Flacco); young and up-and-comers in the way (Luck, Carr, Mariota) and the perpetually underwhelming playoff threats (Rivers, Dalton, Smith)?  



#26 Maury Ballstein

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 07:59 PM

 
 
Yeah Tyrod has a feeble arm. :rolleyes:
 
BTW OP........this topic was discussed already yesterday. :flirt:

Ahhh yes it's awesome. 25th of 32 in passing!

Sandwiched between the almighty Trevor Simien and Ryan Tannenhill

Edited by Ryan L Billz, 13 February 2017 - 10:17 PM.


#27 bobobonators

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 07:59 PM

The fact there there is a debate is enough to know its time to walk away. In two seasons, did he get even slightly better after his years as a backup? Those that want to interject their hatred of Ryan into the argument to imply he didn't coach him properly fail to remember, Ryan didn't make inaccurate throws not even get the ball to open receivers. That's on TT. A player in any system has to execute, this is an execution league and QB is the most important execution position. TT has many issues that Benoit pointed and that many former TT supports now include on their lists of reasons TT is not the guy. 
 
I think the debate comes down to one word: mediocre, followed by one crippling question at OBD: "Do we risk drafting a project from this class or roll the dice with Cardale Jones and potentially go backwards or do we accept the limits of mediocrity and stick with TT and potentially sneak into the playoffs and play one game, assuming all else improves?"
 
This is the same question for fans. It's a monster financial risk to keep him around knowing he's hit the ceiling, hard. 
 
I think the powers at OBD know this is a mediocre QB who absolutely cannot win you a game by himself like, uh, that guy from NE did last week completing 27 of his final 33 to take over and win the SB. 
 
If you honestly think this is a SB caliber QB, I don't have much to offer. Seeing all the younger QBs in this league and the guy who seems to not be dropping off in NE, are you willing to keep Taylor as your ticket to an AFC Championship with the old gaurd SB winners still around (Brady, Roethlisberger, Flacco); young and up-and-comers in the way (Luck, Carr, Mariota) and the perpetually underwhelming playoff threats (Rivers, Dalton, Smith)?  

In two years starting did he get better from his time as a backup? Lets see: two years starting and two pro bowl invites.

His first season starting was exactly comparable to RG3's Rookie of the Year season where he was the talk of the town.

Yeh he slightly regressed this year. That tends to happen when youre not at Brady's talent level and you have 5 WR on injured reserve.

So to answer your question, id say yes, his two years in Buffalo were better than his time in Baltimore

Edited by bobobonators, 13 February 2017 - 08:00 PM.


#28 Big C

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 08:15 PM

Which one is the tanking option? I don't see the Bills winning many games at all this year if Taylor is the same QB we've seen the last two years (unfortunately).

Though I have seen people here who feel he's a good fit for the Dennison offense. Based on what I saw in Denver with Dennison/Kubiak I have a hard time understanding that but if anyone can chime in that knows more, great. Just casually watched the Broncos last couple years.

 

The only connection with Dennison and TT is that the Broncos wanted to bring in TT two years ago. Don't know how much of a fit it is. I watched a few Broncos games last year and the offense seemed fairly simple but the Broncos had stellar pass catchers which must have helped a little. Courtesy of a great defense, they went 9-7 with a carousel of running backs and a 6th round QB in his second season with the team. I think TT is at least as good as Siemian was (in different ways of course), but then the question is will the defense improve enough to get us the extra wins, or does TT improve? 



#29 YoloinOhio

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 08:17 PM

He is definitely a better QB than Siemian (imo)! Just ... different.

#30 #BADOL

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 08:17 PM

 

This. Keeping TT actually hurts our chances at keeping Watkins.

 

 

One could argue that throwing a good deep ball and ball velocity are not mutually exclusive. The ability to place a ball deep does not rely solely on the speed of the football. Sure, you have to have a certain threshold velocity (50 mph is not awful but was the worst of all QBs in the 2011 draft class) to actually get a throw down the field, but a slower velocity may result in the ball taking an extra tenth of a second to get there and giving CBs a little longer to make a play. My bigger grip with TT's velocity is that he will try to gun the ball to wide open people in the flat at times when it's not necessary. Though it's not a benchmark for success it should be noted that most HOF caliber QBs threw in the 58+ range. 

 

 

To me the most noticeable thing about Taylor in his first preseason game in Buffalo was how powerful his arm had become.

 

I watched far too much of him at Va Tech and the difference was significant...........velocity has been NO PROBLEM whatsoever in Buffalo.........claiming it has because of a bias from the combine 6 years ago is just lazy evaluating.

 

Even after he sprained the AC joint in his throwing shoulder in NE in 2015........he came out the next week and was throwing fine.

 

What his "average ball velocity" is now I don't know but he's not one hopping throws or hanging passes that are being knocked away.

 

And as a LONG TIME proponent of arm strength for Buffalo QB's........the most important aspect is having enough arm strength to control the deep ball.

 

Ryan Fitzpatrick's ball velocity was fine in Buffalo......everything within 20 yards was probably pushing 60mph....but his arm was not strong enough to throw the deep ball without losing his mechanics..

 

Tyrod gets distance controlled and with ease.......discounting what Tyrod does on the deep ball greatly discounts his actual arm strength.



#31 BuffaloHokie13

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 08:19 PM

 

The only connection with Dennison and TT is that the Broncos wanted to bring in TT two years ago. Don't know how much of a fit it is. I watched a few Broncos games last year and the offense seemed fairly simple but the Broncos had stellar pass catchers which must have helped a little. Courtesy of a great defense, they went 9-7 with a carousel of running backs and a 6th round QB in his second season with the team. I think TT is at least as good as Siemian was (in different ways of course), but then the question is will the defense improve enough to get us the extra wins, or does TT improve? 

Dennison was Tyrod's QB coach in Baltimore for a year as well, for what it's worth



#32 Coach Tuesday

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 07:47 AM

 
 
To me the most noticeable thing about Taylor in his first preseason game in Buffalo was how powerful his arm had become.
 
I watched far too much of him at Va Tech and the difference was significant...........velocity has been NO PROBLEM whatsoever in Buffalo.........claiming it has because of a bias from the combine 6 years ago is just lazy evaluating.
 
Even after he sprained the AC joint in his throwing shoulder in NE in 2015........he came out the next week and was throwing fine.
 
What his "average ball velocity" is now I don't know but he's not one hopping throws or hanging passes that are being knocked away.
 
And as a LONG TIME proponent of arm strength for Buffalo QB's........the most important aspect is having enough arm strength to control the deep ball.
 
Ryan Fitzpatrick's ball velocity was fine in Buffalo......everything within 20 yards was probably pushing 60mph....but his arm was not strong enough to throw the deep ball without losing his mechanics..
 
Tyrod gets distance controlled and with ease.......discounting what Tyrod does on the deep ball greatly discounts his actual arm strength.

Well, I don't disagree with what you've said above. I do disagree with your take on Benoit, I listen to his weekly podcasts and he is definitely not a JAG, I learn something new from him every week. Though you're right he doesn't give equal attention to every team or player and can get a bit lazy. I suspect what he's talking about with Tyrod is that when TT's mechanics break down, he tends to throw back-footed rather than stepping into his throws. Though that may affect accuracy more than velocity. My issue with Tyrod is that he doesn't step up in the pocket enough, drive his front foot, and fire passes with anticipation. Many of his throws "look tentative" which is not the same as looking fluttery, but whatever.

Edited by Coach Tuesday, 14 February 2017 - 07:48 AM.


#33 Deceptikhans

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 08:12 AM

the horror of 2 pro bowl invites 

 

This is your defense for Tyrod? Really? yikes...



#34 BUFFALOTONE

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 08:21 AM

 

 

To me the most noticeable thing about Taylor in his first preseason game in Buffalo was how powerful his arm had become.

 

I watched far too much of him at Va Tech and the difference was significant...........velocity has been NO PROBLEM whatsoever in Buffalo.........claiming it has because of a bias from the combine 6 years ago is just lazy evaluating.

 

Even after he sprained the AC joint in his throwing shoulder in NE in 2015........he came out the next week and was throwing fine.

 

What his "average ball velocity" is now I don't know but he's not one hopping throws or hanging passes that are being knocked away.

 

And as a LONG TIME proponent of arm strength for Buffalo QB's........the most important aspect is having enough arm strength to control the deep ball.

 

Ryan Fitzpatrick's ball velocity was fine in Buffalo......everything within 20 yards was probably pushing 60mph....but his arm was not strong enough to throw the deep ball without losing his mechanics..

 

Tyrod gets distance controlled and with ease.......discounting what Tyrod does on the deep ball greatly discounts his actual arm strength.

What are you watching? Velocity is great.....but Velocity+ Accuracy+ Anticipation+Pocket Awareness is something he does not have. Akili Smith, Jeff George, Todd Marinovich, Michael Vick, Vince Young, Matt Leinart...and the list goes on and on, all had very strong arms. How did that work out?

 

Vick is the exception with his athleticism as it would mask bad plays. Tyrod is one in the same but is trying to be a pocket passer and simply does not have the ability. He either doesn't see the field or panics and breaks out to the pocket to throw those circus deep balls you're talking about. And besides, that's one of the easiest passes to make in football.

 

Benoit's take was spot on IMO.



#35 BarleyNY

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 08:22 AM

Benoit, who studies film of all the NFL games for the MMQB, chose one position as each team's biggest weakness and need to addressthis offseason. Bills = QB. He's studied his film for 2 years. WGR brought him on, and his statement will be familiar to those who especially who look at the all-22 or watch the games live.http://www.si.com/nf...flow_twitter_si
Wgr cliphttp://d3efjls8gnbg8...edia.wgr550.com
Tyrod analysis starts at 11:17
Beyond what we've been discussing on accuracy and lack of pocket presence, he examines why stats can't capture the most debilitating part of his game, which is leaving plays on the field. This is the most frustrating thing for fans ...as well as I'd imagine coaches and players.
Is this something that can improve in time, with different coaches and system? He indicates there are plays designed to be easy reads that he still does not make. I hope Whaley and mcdermott know whether or not he is capable of seeing the field and just needs development or if this is something he's not going to ever get if he hasn't already.


The comment about the All-22 and watching him live is spot on. I was in the fence until I saw Taylor live. Against the Browns no less. That was all it took for me to be 100% certain that the Bills have to move on and find an upgrade.

#36 Maury Ballstein

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 08:26 AM

The comment about the All-22 and watching him live is spot on. I was in the fence until I saw Taylor live. Against the Browns no less. That was all it took for me to be 100% certain that the Bills have to move on and find an upgrade.

Bengals Ravens Pats Steelers Raiders as well.

But we would be "tanking" without him. That's always a funny one.

Edited by Ryan L Billz, 14 February 2017 - 08:28 AM.


#37 BarleyNY

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 08:30 AM


But I think the question is do we keep TT and work on a seamless transition to a draftee in the next couple years, find a different vet instead or draft a guy to be week 1 starter. As it stands I don't really see the tanking option as a real option right now.

  

I agree. My recommendation is to keep him and draft a qb this year with a high pick. The tanking option is an absurd position to take. As it stands you can turn over a third of your roster with the normal player movement from one season to the next. Cleaning house to start over makes little sense because if you do that it would set you back even further.


I totally understand not wanting to take a step back at the QB position. That's definitely valid. The problem is the contract. If his option is picked up, then Taylor is a well paid Bill for at least 2-3 seasons. I don't see how a team picks up such a substantial option and then immediately undermines him by taking a QB high in the draft. That would get ugly in a hurry.

#38 YoloinOhio

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 08:31 AM

The comment about the All-22 and watching him live is spot on. I was in the fence until I saw Taylor live. Against the Browns no less. That was all it took for me to be 100% certain that the Bills have to move on and find an upgrade.

i went to the Bengals game. Same. It gives a whole new perspective. i think most players on the team would be disappointed if the Bills move forward with him and hand him the starting job without a real competition.

Edited by YoloinOhio, 14 February 2017 - 08:34 AM.


#39 auburnbillsbacker

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 08:34 AM

I agree, he does leave big plays on the field.  He also leads our offense to a lot points, meaning he makes a lot of plays.  Everyone has picked their side already, but I believe they should keep Taylor and draft a QB.  



#40 Commonsense

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 08:36 AM

What did you guys see while at that games that was more convincing than just watching from home? I want to move on from TT as well, just curious as to why seeing him on the field had left you both feeling the same way. Missed plays? Demeanor? Both?