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Is this the 2013 quarterback search all over again?

2013 qb search again

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#1 long suffering bills fan

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 12:30 PM

Is it me, or does the lead up to this year's draft have a remarkably similar feel to the situation at one Bills Drive in 2013?
 
We have a General Manager that is determined to find the Bills' "franchise quarterback" in a draft year where the conventional wisdom is that no qb is worthy of a 1st round pick.
 
Many mock drafts have the Bills reaching for one of the top three qbs of this draft with the first pick.  To me, this seems like the EJ Manuel decision all over again.
 
I am not sure if I can go through another failed qb experiment. 
 
I have supported Whaley so far because he has made some good moves.  My feeling is that you take the good with the bad.  My feelings are beginning to turn.  If he is foolish enough to turn loose TT without having a solid plan in place to replace him with veteran leadership, he should be gone, no questions asked!

#2 Jauronimo

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 12:35 PM

Is it me, or does the lead up to this year's draft have a remarkably similar feel to the situation at one Bills Drive in 2013?

 

We have a General Manager that is determined to find the Bills' "franchise quarterback" in a draft year where the conventional wisdom is that no qb is worthy of a 1st round pick.

 

Many mock drafts have the Bills reaching for one of the top three qbs of this draft with the first pick.  To me, this seems like the EJ Manuel decision all over again.

 

I am not sure if I can go through another failed qb experiment. 

 

I have supported Whaley so far because he has made some good moves.  My feeling is that you take the good with the bad.  My feelings are beginning to turn.  If he is foolish enough to turn loose TT without having a solid plan in place to replace him with veteran leadership, he should be gone, no questions asked!

Maybe you should have waited for any of these things to transpire before starting this thread?

 

"Next year" is always a better year to draft a quarterback. 



#3 LeGOATski

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 12:45 PM

The difference is that there is already a young QB on the team that they like (I assume) in Cardale Jones. And they have a young-ish starter who led a good offense.

When they got Manuel, they had no rookie like Cardale and were starting Fitz.

#4 jr1

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 12:49 PM

the white QB search



#5 DriveFor1Outta5

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 12:52 PM

The difference is that there is already a young QB on the team that they like (I assume) in Cardale Jones. And they have a young-ish starter who led a good offense.

When they got Manuel, they had no rookie like Cardale and were starting Fitz.

The problem is that besides optimistic Bills fans I don't think anyone else views Cardale as a potential franchise QB. He's a major project who they were afraid to even play in a meaningless season finale. Most football people outside of Bills and OSU fans would agree the best hope is that he becomes a competent backup. I do see parrells between 2013 and this offseason if we let TT go. However, they may very go with Cardale and wait until the next draft for a QB selection. If they force themselves to draft a QB this season it will be like 2013 because it is desperation at the wrong time. This isn't the draft to find a savior at QB.

#6 GunnerBill

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 12:55 PM

The conventional wisdom is not that there is no QB worth a first round pick. The coventional wisdom is that there is no elite Quarterback worth taking early - as Mayock put it "taking one in the top 10 would scare you."

The most publically down big name analyst on this class is Kiper and even he has one (Trubisky) with a 1st round grade. In 2013 there were multiple big name and respected analysts with no first round grades on QBs. This class is not even close to being as weak as that one.

#7 ScottLaw

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 12:55 PM

Is it me, or does the lead up to this year's draft have a remarkably similar feel to the situation at one Bills Drive in 2013?
 
We have a General Manager that is determined to find the Bills' "franchise quarterback" in a draft year where the conventional wisdom is that no qb is worthy of a 1st round pick.
 
Many mock drafts have the Bills reaching for one of the top three qbs of this draft with the first pick.  To me, this seems like the EJ Manuel decision all over again.
 
I am not sure if I can go through another failed qb experiment. 
 
I have supported Whaley so far because he has made some good moves.  My feeling is that you take the good with the bad.  My feelings are beginning to turn.  If he is foolish enough to turn loose TT without having a solid plan in place to replace him with veteran leadership, he should be gone, no questions asked!


Fitz was a bum.

Tyrod can play. Long term solution? No, but he's better then Fitz and a viable option for now.

#8 LeGOATski

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 01:02 PM

The problem is that besides optimistic Bills fans I don't think anyone else views Cardale as a potential franchise QB. He's a major project who they were afraid to even play in a meaningless season finale. Most football people outside of Bills and OSU fans would agree the best hope is that he becomes a competent backup. I do see parrells between 2013 and this offseason if we let TT go. However, they may very go with Cardale and wait until the next draft for a QB selection. If they force themselves to draft a QB this season it will be like 2013 because it is desperation at the wrong time. This isn't the draft to find a savior at QB.


I agree on Cardale. Never liked him. I'm sure Whaley and most in the FO still see promise there.

I also agree on the quality of this draft. But, my point is the Bills aren't desperate like they were in 2013. It's highly unlikely, in my mind, that they reach for a QB this year.

#9 FireChan

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 01:06 PM

Is it me, or does the lead up to this year's draft have a remarkably similar feel to the situation at one Bills Drive in 2013?

 

We have a General Manager that is determined to find the Bills' "franchise quarterback" in a draft year where the conventional wisdom is that no qb is worthy of a 1st round pick.

 

Many mock drafts have the Bills reaching for one of the top three qbs of this draft with the first pick.  To me, this seems like the EJ Manuel decision all over again.

 

I am not sure if I can go through another failed qb experiment. 

 

I have supported Whaley so far because he has made some good moves.  My feeling is that you take the good with the bad.  My feelings are beginning to turn.  If he is foolish enough to turn loose TT without having a solid plan in place to replace him with veteran leadership, he should be gone, no questions asked!

Both of these are incorrect.

 

If your heart can't take QB's sucking, boy is the NFL not the sport for you. Golf is about to heat up shortly.

 

That's enough out of you.



#10 Alphadawg7

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 01:28 PM

Is it me, or does the lead up to this year's draft have a remarkably similar feel to the situation at one Bills Drive in 2013?

 

We have a General Manager that is determined to find the Bills' "franchise quarterback" in a draft year where the conventional wisdom is that no qb is worthy of a 1st round pick.

 

Many mock drafts have the Bills reaching for one of the top three qbs of this draft with the first pick.  To me, this seems like the EJ Manuel decision all over again.

 

I am not sure if I can go through another failed qb experiment. 

 

I have supported Whaley so far because he has made some good moves.  My feeling is that you take the good with the bad.  My feelings are beginning to turn.  If he is foolish enough to turn loose TT without having a solid plan in place to replace him with veteran leadership, he should be gone, no questions asked!

 

I agree with you, doesnt make sense to me either and feels a LOT like 2013.  The anti TT guys will tell you that its stupid to compare this to the 2013 year because they want to get rid of TT so bad.  But everyone knows the best QB prospect in this draft isn't even in this draft and that is Jimmy G in NE.  None of the top 4 guys can even claim being the best QB in this draft.  Teams will draft one or more high, but its out of desperation and need, not based on the strength of the prospect.  

 

At the same time, just because the class isnt exciting, doesnt mean one or more wont emerge in the NFL.  Nothing matters once the draft is complete other than what they do on the field.  But, that doesn't change the fact that overall its not the most ideal year to go all in on a rookie QB when we as the Bills are NOT desperate at QB with TT.  If we were desperate then sure, grab a guy you want high in this draft (and we could end up being desperate if we really do get rid of TT...which I still have my doubts Whaled does).  But we will only be desperate if we make ourselves desperate because offense wasnt our biggest problem last year.  Some facts to prove the point:

 

1.  2016 Bills were the 7th highest scoring team in Bills history and missed being 5th by ONE POINT.  If TT plays in week 17, we easily score more than 10 which would have made the team at the min the 5th in Bills history.  If we score 20 points in week 17 under TT (Highly likely against that bad Jets team we scored 31 against earlier in the season) then we would have been 4th highest in team history.  31 points and they would have been 3rd highest and at 39 points would have been 2nd highest in Bills history.  BOTTOM LINE:  Scoring was not our issue.  And the seasons under TT are the highest 2 consecutive scoring seasons in Bills history other than 2 times in the 4 Super Bowl Run teams.

 

2.  In the 16 games TT started, we were the 5th highest scoring team in the NFL this year.  You win in the NFL by scoring points, not piling up passing yards.  There is more than one way to win in the NFL.  And TT makes a lot of plays with his legs that don't show up in "passing yards".

 

3.  The Bills ATTEMPTED the LEAST amount of passes in the NFL in a run first offense...so obviously our passing yards per game are going to be low.  Factoring in we were missing Sammy for a large portion of the year and he wasnt 100% in several of the games he played, combined with nagging injuries to Woods and the rest of the WR group, its no shock why we ran so much with a dominating trio of TT, McCoy, and MG.  

 

4.  If you remove the anomaly game against NE with no Brady, a 3rd string rookie QB playing hurt, and a Gronk that played a couple decoy snaps...(they dropped over 40 on us a few weeks later when they were back) and look at the other 15 games to see how the D did, it was 26th in the NFL in points allowed.  Had Brady played week 4, we would have certainly gave up enough points that dropped us to 27th or 28th.  

 

More interesting is that when TT and Sammy are healthy, they are actually pretty productive together through the air.  Last year, TT was much better throwing downfield because Sammy was healthy the last 9 games of the season and was one of the most productive WRs in the NFL during that stretch.  The rest of our WR's are not very good and TT clearly doesnt have the same confidence and trust in them as he has more patience and takes more chances when throwing to Sammy.  Get Sammy back healthy and another playmaking WR he can trust (no to Robert Woods, he is not the guy) and this passing offense will open up more to go with our lethal running attack.  

 

The FO should FIX THE DEFENSE FIRST.  TT is NOT our biggest problem and this is NOT a good year to go for broke on a QB.  Just making a system change on defense is going to help it a ton as Rex system was not working on that side of the ball.  Add some talent in the secondary in FA and the draft, and this D can make a significant rebound this year and paired with the offenses ability to score (and hopefully another WR not named Robert Woods to throw to) will make this team a contender.  


Edited by Alphadawg7, 15 February 2017 - 01:30 PM.


#11 DriveFor1Outta5

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 01:35 PM

I agree on Cardale. Never liked him. I'm sure Whaley and most in the FO still see promise there.

I also agree on the quality of this draft. But, my point is the Bills aren't desperate like they were in 2013. It's highly unlikely, in my mind, that they reach for a QB this year.

We are on the same page. It's just a matter of semantics. If the franchise feels that TT is not the future this does leave them desperate at the QB position. If TT leaves than this franchise should feel desperate for a QB. The key is not acting out of desperation to draft a high round guy this season. If they think Cardale is the future they will know better by the end of 2017 season. These are desperate times, but it's important not to act out of desperation.

#12 Alphadawg7

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 01:36 PM

The conventional wisdom is not that there is no QB worth a first round pick. The coventional wisdom is that there is no elite Quarterback worth taking early - as Mayock put it "taking one in the top 10 would scare you."

The most publically down big name analyst on this class is Kiper and even he has one (Trubisky) with a 1st round grade. In 2013 there were multiple big name and respected analysts with no first round grades on QBs. This class is not even close to being as weak as that one.

 

That does not change the fact that its still not a great class to self inflict desperation and make yourself go all in on a rookie high in the draft.  That is the point.  

 

We were 5th in the NFL scoring under TT this year...we are not desperate at QB unless we self inflict that desperation by not keeping Taylor.  Why not fix the D which is loaded with Elite prospects at the top of the draft and then worry about the QB position next year if TT or Cardale don't step up and cease the job for good.



#13 FireChan

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 01:37 PM

 

That does not change the fact that its still not a great class to self inflict desperation and make yourself go all in on a rookie high in the draft.  That is the point.  

 

We were 5th in the NFL scoring under TT this year...we are not desperate at QB unless we self inflict that desperation by not keeping Taylor.  Why not fix the D which is loaded with Elite prospects at the top of the draft and then worry about the QB position next year if TT or Cardale don't step up and cease the job for good.

Worry about the QB next year says the team who hasn't had a QB in 20 years.



#14 Alphadawg7

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 01:44 PM

Worry about the QB next year says the team who hasn't had a QB in 20 years.

 

Really...the last 2 years under TT were the 2 highest scoring years in Bills history outside the SB runs.  Seems we did just fine scoring points.



#15 FireChan

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 01:47 PM

 

Really...the last 2 years under TT were the 2 highest scoring years in Bills history outside the SB runs.  Seems we did just fine scoring points.

So fine that on more than 50% of our games, we had less than the opponent.

 

Still don't have a QB.  Need to take one until we do.  It's that simple.


Edited by FireChan, 15 February 2017 - 01:47 PM.


#16 long suffering bills fan

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 02:48 PM

 

I agree with you, doesnt make sense to me either and feels a LOT like 2013.  The anti TT guys will tell you that its stupid to compare this to the 2013 year because they want to get rid of TT so bad.  But everyone knows the best QB prospect in this draft isn't even in this draft and that is Jimmy G in NE.  None of the top 4 guys can even claim being the best QB in this draft.  Teams will draft one or more high, but its out of desperation and need, not based on the strength of the prospect.  

 

At the same time, just because the class isnt exciting, doesnt mean one or more wont emerge in the NFL.  Nothing matters once the draft is complete other than what they do on the field.  But, that doesn't change the fact that overall its not the most ideal year to go all in on a rookie QB when we as the Bills are NOT desperate at QB with TT.  If we were desperate then sure, grab a guy you want high in this draft (and we could end up being desperate if we really do get rid of TT...which I still have my doubts Whaled does).  But we will only be desperate if we make ourselves desperate because offense wasnt our biggest problem last year.  Some facts to prove the point:

 

1.  2016 Bills were the 7th highest scoring team in Bills history and missed being 5th by ONE POINT.  If TT plays in week 17, we easily score more than 10 which would have made the team at the min the 5th in Bills history.  If we score 20 points in week 17 under TT (Highly likely against that bad Jets team we scored 31 against earlier in the season) then we would have been 4th highest in team history.  31 points and they would have been 3rd highest and at 39 points would have been 2nd highest in Bills history.  BOTTOM LINE:  Scoring was not our issue.  And the seasons under TT are the highest 2 consecutive scoring seasons in Bills history other than 2 times in the 4 Super Bowl Run teams.

 

2.  In the 16 games TT started, we were the 5th highest scoring team in the NFL this year.  You win in the NFL by scoring points, not piling up passing yards.  There is more than one way to win in the NFL.  And TT makes a lot of plays with his legs that don't show up in "passing yards".

 

3.  The Bills ATTEMPTED the LEAST amount of passes in the NFL in a run first offense...so obviously our passing yards per game are going to be low.  Factoring in we were missing Sammy for a large portion of the year and he wasnt 100% in several of the games he played, combined with nagging injuries to Woods and the rest of the WR group, its no shock why we ran so much with a dominating trio of TT, McCoy, and MG.  

 

4.  If you remove the anomaly game against NE with no Brady, a 3rd string rookie QB playing hurt, and a Gronk that played a couple decoy snaps...(they dropped over 40 on us a few weeks later when they were back) and look at the other 15 games to see how the D did, it was 26th in the NFL in points allowed.  Had Brady played week 4, we would have certainly gave up enough points that dropped us to 27th or 28th.  

 

More interesting is that when TT and Sammy are healthy, they are actually pretty productive together through the air.  Last year, TT was much better throwing downfield because Sammy was healthy the last 9 games of the season and was one of the most productive WRs in the NFL during that stretch.  The rest of our WR's are not very good and TT clearly doesnt have the same confidence and trust in them as he has more patience and takes more chances when throwing to Sammy.  Get Sammy back healthy and another playmaking WR he can trust (no to Robert Woods, he is not the guy) and this passing offense will open up more to go with our lethal running attack.  

 

The FO should FIX THE DEFENSE FIRST.  TT is NOT our biggest problem and this is NOT a good year to go for broke on a QB.  Just making a system change on defense is going to help it a ton as Rex system was not working on that side of the ball.  Add some talent in the secondary in FA and the draft, and this D can make a significant rebound this year and paired with the offenses ability to score (and hopefully another WR not named Robert Woods to throw to) will make this team a contender.  

Great post!  I agree with everything you stated.  Now if we can only get Whaley to buy in.



#17 GunnerBill

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 02:50 PM

Why does this become about Tyrod again???

It is cultish. The strength or otherwise of this draft class has sod all to do with Tyrod Taylor.

#18 BuffaloHokie13

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 02:54 PM

Why does this become about Tyrod again???

It is cultish. The strength or otherwise of this draft class has sod all to do with Tyrod Taylor.

What if I told you that the rights to an FA player not signed by the time of the draft is actually eligible to be drafted instead of a rookie?

 

Meh, worth a shot anyway...



#19 All_Pro_Bills

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 03:29 PM

 

I agree with you, doesnt make sense to me either and feels a LOT like 2013.  The anti TT guys will tell you that its stupid to compare this to the 2013 year because they want to get rid of TT so bad.  But everyone knows the best QB prospect in this draft isn't even in this draft and that is Jimmy G in NE.  None of the top 4 guys can even claim being the best QB in this draft.  Teams will draft one or more high, but its out of desperation and need, not based on the strength of the prospect.  

 

At the same time, just because the class isnt exciting, doesnt mean one or more wont emerge in the NFL.  Nothing matters once the draft is complete other than what they do on the field.  But, that doesn't change the fact that overall its not the most ideal year to go all in on a rookie QB when we as the Bills are NOT desperate at QB with TT.  If we were desperate then sure, grab a guy you want high in this draft (and we could end up being desperate if we really do get rid of TT...which I still have my doubts Whaled does).  But we will only be desperate if we make ourselves desperate because offense wasnt our biggest problem last year.  Some facts to prove the point:

 

1.  2016 Bills were the 7th highest scoring team in Bills history and missed being 5th by ONE POINT.  If TT plays in week 17, we easily score more than 10 which would have made the team at the min the 5th in Bills history.  If we score 20 points in week 17 under TT (Highly likely against that bad Jets team we scored 31 against earlier in the season) then we would have been 4th highest in team history.  31 points and they would have been 3rd highest and at 39 points would have been 2nd highest in Bills history.  BOTTOM LINE:  Scoring was not our issue.  And the seasons under TT are the highest 2 consecutive scoring seasons in Bills history other than 2 times in the 4 Super Bowl Run teams.

 

2.  In the 16 games TT started, we were the 5th highest scoring team in the NFL this year.  You win in the NFL by scoring points, not piling up passing yards.  There is more than one way to win in the NFL.  And TT makes a lot of plays with his legs that don't show up in "passing yards".

 

3.  The Bills ATTEMPTED the LEAST amount of passes in the NFL in a run first offense...so obviously our passing yards per game are going to be low.  Factoring in we were missing Sammy for a large portion of the year and he wasnt 100% in several of the games he played, combined with nagging injuries to Woods and the rest of the WR group, its no shock why we ran so much with a dominating trio of TT, McCoy, and MG.  

 

4.  If you remove the anomaly game against NE with no Brady, a 3rd string rookie QB playing hurt, and a Gronk that played a couple decoy snaps...(they dropped over 40 on us a few weeks later when they were back) and look at the other 15 games to see how the D did, it was 26th in the NFL in points allowed.  Had Brady played week 4, we would have certainly gave up enough points that dropped us to 27th or 28th.  

 

More interesting is that when TT and Sammy are healthy, they are actually pretty productive together through the air.  Last year, TT was much better throwing downfield because Sammy was healthy the last 9 games of the season and was one of the most productive WRs in the NFL during that stretch.  The rest of our WR's are not very good and TT clearly doesnt have the same confidence and trust in them as he has more patience and takes more chances when throwing to Sammy.  Get Sammy back healthy and another playmaking WR he can trust (no to Robert Woods, he is not the guy) and this passing offense will open up more to go with our lethal running attack.  

 

The FO should FIX THE DEFENSE FIRST.  TT is NOT our biggest problem and this is NOT a good year to go for broke on a QB.  Just making a system change on defense is going to help it a ton as Rex system was not working on that side of the ball.  Add some talent in the secondary in FA and the draft, and this D can make a significant rebound this year and paired with the offenses ability to score (and hopefully another WR not named Robert Woods to throw to) will make this team a contender.  

Well thought out and definitely the defense was terrible and needs to be upgraded at all 3 levels.  And while I don't think TT is the answer I also don't feel he's the biggest problem and all potential alternates are either less desirable or very risky or worse just wishful thinking. 

 

Along with the defense I see Cap management as a problem.  A small number of players gobbling up a big portion of the cap.  This might necessitate cutting some high paid players and letting Gilmore walk.  If it was up to me my list would be releasing A. Williams (I think he should retire before something really bad happens), K. Williams (some contender might pick him up on a 1 or 2 year deal and the guy deserves a shot at the title), Clay (just overpaid), and Wood (Groy did a decent job at a much lower cap hit).   

 

And find another kicker to replace Carpenter as his efficiency looks to be on the slide.

 

Find a genuine number 2 receiver.  If Mike Williams is there at 10 then take him otherwise defense.



#20 Alphadawg7

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 04:10 PM

Well thought out and definitely the defense was terrible and needs to be upgraded at all 3 levels.  And while I don't think TT is the answer I also don't feel he's the biggest problem and all potential alternates are either less desirable or very risky or worse just wishful thinking. 

 

Along with the defense I see Cap management as a problem.  A small number of players gobbling up a big portion of the cap.  This might necessitate cutting some high paid players and letting Gilmore walk.  If it was up to me my list would be releasing A. Williams (I think he should retire before something really bad happens), K. Williams (some contender might pick him up on a 1 or 2 year deal and the guy deserves a shot at the title), Clay (just overpaid), and Wood (Groy did a decent job at a much lower cap hit).   

 

And find another kicker to replace Carpenter as his efficiency looks to be on the slide.

 

Find a genuine number 2 receiver.  If Mike Williams is there at 10 then take him otherwise defense.

 

Thanks and I totally agree with you, especially about TT.