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Spinning our wheels


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#1 All I Need is Hope

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:12 PM

Is losing Gilmore in his prime, then using a 1st rounder on a CB, the definition of spinning our wheels? Especially considering all of the other holes to fill on this roster (safety, DT, #2 WR, etc).

This is frustration talking, but to be mired in mediocrity for 18 years, and be bleeding talent (Gilmore, Woods, Aaron Williams, Goodwin, maybe Zach Brown) really sucks.

#2 Commonsense

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:15 PM

I don't understand why anyone goes on a cruise ship without getting the all inclusive drink package.

#3 Teeflebees

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:15 PM

Is losing Gilmore in his prime, then using a 1st rounder on a CB, the definition of spinning our wheels? Especially considering all of the other holes to fill on this roster (safety, DT, #2 WR, etc).

This is frustration talking, but to be mired in mediocrity for 18 years, and be bleeding talent (Gilmore, Woods, Aaron Williams, Goodwin, maybe Zach Brown) really sucks.

I like Gilmore but would you have been okay with paying him at least $14.5 million a year?

#4 Formerly Allan in MD

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:20 PM

It's not spinning your wheels when you can, hopefully, come up with a player who can do it all, including tackling and not drawing killer penalties, to replace an overpaid corner.



#5 Billschinatown

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:21 PM

I don't understand why anyone goes on a cruise ship without getting the all inclusive drink package.


Is it worth it? The fancy mango drink stuff is generally 10$ per...I find I would have to get hammered to meet the cost effectiveness of the all inclusive.

#6 fridge

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:21 PM

This got buried in another thread, but fits better here. This is my take on this exact subject:

 

 

I will be pretty disappointed if we draft a CB.  This has nothing to do with whether or not it is a current need. Here's how I look at it...

 

We've created a need at CB by our own poor roster management dating back to the early 2000's.  Similar to how we've misunderstood the value of the RB position, the Bills have created and filled their own holes in the secondary...

 

In 1999 we drafted Winfield in the first round to fill the hole at DB.

In 2001 we drafted Clements in the first round and had a 1-2 tandem in Winfield/Clements.

In 2003 we let Winfield go

In 2006 we let Clements go

...

 

We use UFA Jabari Greer and 4th RD McGee to plug in these holes eventually, but lose Greer to FA, draft Whitner and begin a new cycle at the position...

...

 

In 2008 we draft McKelvin in the first.

In 2012 we draft Gilmore in the first.

In 2015 we draft Darby with our first pick (2nd round).

In 2016 we get rid of Mckelvin

In 2017 we get rid of Gilmore

 

As much as this is a condemnation of the free agent era, it's a frustrating look at how many times we have created and filled holes due to poor roster management.  If the argument is that GIlmore is too expensive, well then it's a terrible investment of a first round pick.  All the CBs (Winfield, Clements, Gilmore, Whitner and even McKelvin to an extent) were let go to the market because they were too expensive. We continually fall for this trick, and then panic when it's time to pony up.  Winfield was probably the only player worth the big contract, and when you look back, the only recurring trend in this ineptitude is that we've missed the playoffs.

 

Yes, other teams have let a lot of quality starters walk because they were too expensive.  The Patriots are pretty famous for drafting a player and not resigning him, but I'll argue that for us, these are mostly top 10 picks we're talking about here, not last in the first round.  These are positions of value in the draft board that are sure-thing starters...and yet we seem to cyclically release and draft DB's anyways.

 

I've brought this up over the years and I'm often looked at as not understanding how the team is being built.  Well, at the 17 year mark all I can do is throw my hands in the air and wonder how wrong have I been?

 

If you're going to let Gilmore go, fine.  I don't have a problem with it, really, but you need to STOP the cycle there.  You need to use the back half of the draft and bring on depth players to compete for the position.   You cannot afford to simply replace with another first round pick because in 4-5 years (less if you count Darby) it will just happen again.

 

To me, it's simple...if you're going to keep getting these high draft picks you NEED to gamble on the game changer, the QB.  If you try and fill a position of need, you're going to soon release that player and be right back in the same spot in a few years.  If you hit on a QB, the decision is easy. You keep him, you pay him, etc. Every year we go down this same road, every year we scratch our heads at how all these other teams are always in it while we're out.  You can't solve ANY problem until you solve the QB problem.

 

TLDR: Don't draft a CB.  It's a waste and we'll just let him go in 4-5 years like we've done several times during the drought.  Draft a QB.  Even if it's a swing and a miss it's a better value.



#7 TheElectricCompany

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:22 PM

Oh, how far we have fallen since "winning the 2016 offseason"  :bag:



#8 KellyToughII

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:25 PM

Is losing Gilmore in his prime, then using a 1st rounder on a CB, the definition of spinning our wheels? Especially considering all of the other holes to fill on this roster (safety, DT, #2 WR, etc).

This is frustration talking, but to be mired in mediocrity for 18 years, and be bleeding talent (Gilmore, Woods, Aaron Williams, Goodwin, maybe Zach Brown) really sucks.

Corners adapt quick and the Bills did the right thing by letting him go. We are going to get a guy, even in the 2nd round, that will be as good and MUCH cheaper.



#9 Pbomb

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:25 PM

A rookie to replace gilmore will also cost about 12 million less if we go cb at 10. Thats 12 mil we spent filling other holes.

Aaron has hardly played the last 2 years and im not sure i would classify goodwin as talent. Also not sure i would want to pay woods 8 mil a year with sammys contract coming up

#10 Mike in Horseheads

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:26 PM

Oh, how far we have fallen since "winning the 2016 offseason"  :bag:

And that victory really worked out well for us.



#11 KellyToughII

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:26 PM

This got buried in another thread, but fits better here. This is my take on this exact subject:

 

I have to agree.  The DB class is damn deep this year.  Also McDermott can take "lesser" DB's and do well with them.


Oh, how far we have fallen since "winning the 2016 offseason"  :bag:

Ok thats damn funny right there  :thumbsup:



#12 fridge

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:27 PM

A rookie to replace gilmore will also cost about 12 million less if we go cb at 10. Thats 12 mil we spent filling other holes.

Aaron has hardly played the last 2 years and im not sure i would classify goodwin as talent. Also not sure i would want to pay woods 8 mil a year with sammys contract coming up

 

This is an incredibly shallow approach to the greater problem.  Yes, it will be cheaper to pay a rookie...until their contract is up.  Then we will release them and draft another.  It's like leasing a car versus owning one outright.  Teams like the Patriots might be able to afford this luxury, but we need to be buying our cheaper cars outright and working hard at trying to get a franchise QB.

 

Drafting a CB in the first after releasing Gilmore is a fundamental error. If you want to break the cycle, then just release Gilmore. To release him and replace with a coveted top 10 pick is the antithesis of building a roster.



#13 BillsFanMike

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:32 PM

No way does Gilmore deserve what he's being paid. Good in coverage when he's not getting pass interference calls but can't tackle and is afraid of contact. 


Edited by BillsFanMike, 20 March 2017 - 02:33 PM.


#14 dneveu

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:33 PM

Is it worth it? The fancy mango drink stuff is generally 10$ per...I find I would have to get hammered to meet the cost effectiveness of the all inclusive.

 

On royal the time i went they did a buy one get one promotion for our 7 day cruise.  Came out to about 350 bucks total for both of us.  And we're drinkers too so i definitely think it was worth it. 



#15 fridge

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:34 PM

No way does Gilmore deserve what he's being paid. Good in coverage when he's not get pass interference calls but can't tackle and is afraid of contact. 

 

Exactly! He isn't worth what he got, so why would you expect another 1st round DB would be?

 

Winfield

Clements

McKelvin

Whitner

Gilmore

 

None of these DBs that we took in the first round were worth the next big contract, so why would we think it will be any different this time.  It's a terrible investment, nevermind the fact that you're wasting away resources on a hole you just created.



#16 dneveu

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:35 PM

Is losing Gilmore in his prime, then using a 1st rounder on a CB, the definition of spinning our wheels? Especially considering all of the other holes to fill on this roster (safety, DT, #2 WR, etc).

This is frustration talking, but to be mired in mediocrity for 18 years, and be bleeding talent (Gilmore, Woods, Aaron Williams, Goodwin, maybe Zach Brown) really sucks.

 

You can't keep everyone.  We made our commitments to dareus, glenn, sammy, and shady.  

 

I think this differs from the past when we almost never kept players due to our cash to cap formula.

Also - i'm not sure how big a priority he was as he isn't a great fit in this scheme.  


Edited by dneveu, 20 March 2017 - 02:36 PM.


#17 Woodman19

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:36 PM

This is an incredibly shallow approach to the greater problem.  Yes, it will be cheaper to pay a rookie...until their contract is up.  Then we will release them and draft another.  It's like leasing a car versus owning one outright.  Teams like the Patriots might be able to afford this luxury, but we need to be buying our cheaper cars outright and working hard at trying to get a franchise QB.
 
Drafting a CB in the first after releasing Gilmore is a fundamental error. If you want to break the cycle, then just release Gilmore. To release him and replace with a coveted top 10 pick is the antithesis of building a roster.

But why draft a QB when you are paying Tyrod as a starter. Yes, it will be cheaper to pay a rookie...until their contract is up. Then we will release them and draft another. It's like leasing a car versus owning one outright.

#18 oldmanfan

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:36 PM

Given how many corners you need now in a pass happy league, and the insane overinflated costs for a guy, I think what we've done will become more the norm.  Unless you have a guy like a Revis in his prime, who you know can shut down anyone he plays, you are better off drafting guys that are really good every few years and getting good play from them on their rookie deals.

Comes down to much value you place on the position.  Unless the guy is an absolute stud, it may be better to recycle guys at lower cost.



#19 Triple Threat

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:37 PM

Is losing Gilmore in his prime, then using a 1st rounder on a CB, the definition of spinning our wheels? Especially considering all of the other holes to fill on this roster (safety, DT, #2 WR, etc).

This is frustration talking, but to be mired in mediocrity for 18 years, and be bleeding talent (Gilmore, Woods, Aaron Williams, Goodwin, maybe Zach Brown) really sucks.

 

You really think those 5 players are worth around $34 million per year?  What would suck is to have to pay them that.



#20 r00tabaga

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:38 PM

I don't understand why anyone goes on a cruise ship without getting the all inclusive drink package.


This really bothers me as well.