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Spinning our wheels


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#21 Beef Jerky

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:39 PM

Is losing Gilmore in his prime, then using a 1st rounder on a CB, the definition of spinning our wheels? Especially considering all of the other holes to fill on this roster (safety, DT, #2 WR, etc).
This is frustration talking, but to be mired in mediocrity for 18 years, and be bleeding talent (Gilmore, Woods, Aaron Williams, Goodwin, maybe Zach Brown) really sucks.

65$ million vs rookie 5 year contract.

Your frustration must have not seen that.

Edited by Beef Jerky, 20 March 2017 - 02:40 PM.


#22 fridge

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:45 PM

But why draft a QB when you are paying Tyrod as a starter. Yes, it will be cheaper to pay a rookie...until their contract is up. Then we will release them and draft another. It's like leasing a car versus owning one outright.

 

Because when you strike gold on a QB then paying them that second contract isn't a question.  Newsflash: we didn't strike gold on Tyrod. There was a lot of debate and we have a team friendly contract with him.

 

You will never get a franchise QB if you don't try to get one.



#23 Woodman19

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:46 PM

Because when you strike gold on a QB then paying them that second contract isn't a question.  Newsflash: we didn't strike gold on Tyrod. There was a lot of debate and we have a team friendly contract with him.
 
You will never get a franchise QB if you don't try to get one.

So you can't take a DB in round and then find a QB later?

#24 Dr. Who

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:47 PM

Frustration is recycling cb when it isn't the way to build a winning team.  A rookie contract is a lot cheaper than 65 million for five years; like nobody gets that?

Everybody gets that.  Would Lattimore be an improvement on Gilmore?  Probably.  Will it set the team up for short term or long term success?  Not really.  As Fridge pointed out, we have tried this so many times, it's remarkable folks are still on-board with it.

 

The Taylor contract is a bridge qb contract.  A bridge only makes sense if you have a developmental qb on your team.  You don't sign a bridge qb to draft a qb at the end of the contract unless you have a day one starter in the draft.  Unlikely Bills are going to get Darnold, folks.  Then what?

 

Draft Mahomes and develop him.  You can get a good db later in the draft.



#25 Boatdrinks

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:49 PM

Is it worth it? The fancy mango drink stuff is generally 10$ per...I find I would have to get hammered to meet the cost effectiveness of the all inclusive.


And furthermore , going AI for a land based vacation is something I never recommend. Booze is cheap on the islands and you miss so much penned up in a resort compound. Get out there and experience the Island and it's culture and food. Just sayin'

#26 YoloinOhio

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:49 PM

This really bothers me as well.

i thought that was the only reason to get on a cruise ship

#27 fridge

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:52 PM

So you can't take a DB in round and then find a QB later?

 

No, and I literally detailed above exactly why that doesn't work... taking a DB in round 1 has been at the root of our roster mismanagement.



#28 TheTruthHurts

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:57 PM

Is losing Gilmore in his prime, then using a 1st rounder on a CB, the definition of spinning our wheels? Especially considering all of the other holes to fill on this roster (safety, DT, #2 WR, etc).

This is frustration talking, but to be mired in mediocrity for 18 years, and be bleeding talent (Gilmore, Woods, Aaron Williams, Goodwin, maybe Zach Brown) really sucks.

There are big changes on defense. The defense was terrible. Spinning our wheels started when they changed a top 5 defense.

They actually should remain consistent on offense and maybe improve with Watkins.

Defense actually needed changes. Gilmore's fate was probably sealed when Darby showed he can play. I'm not convinced they are eyeing a 1st round CB.

Edited by TheTruthHurts, 20 March 2017 - 02:58 PM.


#29 BillsVet

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:59 PM

No way does Gilmore deserve what he's being paid. Good in coverage when he's not getting pass interference calls but can't tackle and is afraid of contact. 

 

No one in the first wave of free agency deserves what they get.  The market bears it out though if you want to sign a quality UFA you're going to pay.

 

You can't keep everyone.  We made our commitments to dareus, glenn, sammy, and shady.  

 

I think this differs from the past when we almost never kept players due to our cash to cap formula.

Also - i'm not sure how big a priority he was as he isn't a great fit in this scheme.  

 

I realize discussion of roster and cap management here is an exercise in futility, but whatever.  Good teams don't perennially use the draft to fill gaping roster needs.  Usually, a team that drafts well has a player ready to step in and play.  That doesn't happen in Buffalo, and their depth is typically lousy which requires them to spend in UFA when that those players should be on lower rookie contracts.

 

And this narrative of not being able to re-sign everyone should be dead.  From 2009-2013 Buffalo had a total of 17 draft picks in the first 3 rounds. 4 (Maybin, Troup, Graham, EJM) were busts.  7 were not re-signed and hit UFA (Byrd, Levitre, Spiller, Carrington, Gilmore, Woods, and Goodwin). 2 were traded (Sheppard, Alonso).  And a grand total of 4 players were re-signed (Wood, Dareus, A. Williams, and Glenn).

 

They're not signing so many of their own it precludes them from keeping other players.  They're just not getting value from the draft, especially after the 2nd round and trying to balance that in free agency.  They've been fast and loose with resources and now find themselves backed into a corner.

 

I'm not a big Tim Graham fan, but his article at the end of last season hit the nail on the head.  The root cause for their inept roster is poor drafting.  And the same guy who's been affiliated with the team since 2010 is still there.  For the past 4 years he's been behind on the draft and result it relying heavily on free agents.  It's only papering over the real issue. 


Edited by BillsVet, 20 March 2017 - 03:04 PM.


#30 ShadyBillsFan

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:59 PM

I liked Gilmore, but I always thought he should have been better throughout. 

 

It seemed there was always something holding him back, like playing with a club hand for a month or more.   GS - 16, 9, 14, 12, and 15.

 

The one good thing from the poor 2016 defense was his 5 INT's


Edited by ShadyBillsFan, 20 March 2017 - 03:00 PM.


#31 NewEra

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 03:02 PM

Is losing Gilmore in his prime, then using a 1st rounder on a CB, the definition of spinning our wheels? Especially considering all of the other holes to fill on this roster (safety, DT, #2 WR, etc).
This is frustration talking, but to be mired in mediocrity for 18 years, and be bleeding talent (Gilmore, Woods, Aaron Williams, Goodwin, maybe Zach Brown) really sucks.


Zzzzzz

#32 John from Hemet

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 03:09 PM

I will say this....if there was ever a year when corner talent leaving didnt hurt as much....its THIS year

 

Pluck a couple out of this draft



#33 metzelaars_lives

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 03:09 PM

You included Goodwin amongst your evidence of the Bills "bleeding talent."  Do you have any idea how much more Andre Holmes brings to this roster than Marquise Goodwin?  Not to mention, Micah Hyde vs. Aaron Williams?



#34 elroy16

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 03:10 PM

 

No, and I literally detailed above exactly why that doesn't work... taking a DB in round 1 has been at the root of our roster mismanagement.

 

 

That is one variable and IMO, certainly not close to the root of the roster mismanagement. 

 

 

I think not focusing on the lines has been a bigger issue over the years, outside of course finding a franchise QB. Only elite QB's can mask a poor O-line and even then they can only do so much. 



#35 Dr. Who

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 03:13 PM

 

 

That is one variable and IMO, certainly not close to the root of the roster mismanagement. 

 

 

I think not focusing on the lines has been a bigger issue over the years, outside of course finding a franchise QB. Only elite QB's can mask a poor O-line and even then they can only do so much. 

I do think o-line has been neglected, but right now outside of RT, we are pretty good.  DL isn't bad either, though Kyle is long in the tooth.



#36 jeffismagic

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 03:14 PM

 
 
That is one variable and IMO, certainly not close to the root of the roster mismanagement. 
 
 
I think not focusing on the lines has been a bigger issue over the years, outside of course finding a franchise QB. Only elite QB's can mask a poor O-line and even then they can only do so much. 


The Bills have a poor offensive line?

#37 elroy16

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 03:17 PM

In the last two to three years they've gotten much better about addressing the O-line, I was referring to the playoff drought in general. 

 

 

I'd like to see them continue to look for pass rushers. Outside of Hughes, a 34 year old vet, and maybe Shaq, they're awful thin on pass rushers. We'll see about Ryan Davis.


Edited by elroy16, 20 March 2017 - 03:19 PM.


#38 jeffismagic

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 03:21 PM

There is one position that the Bills neglect over and over and over again.

Bills would rather run a 1970s college offense then get a QB.

#39 hondo in seattle

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 03:22 PM

You draft the best guys you can and hope to get a few good years out of them.

 

Depending on the market, you then resign some of your draft picks and letter others walk if the price isn't right.  That's the plan at all 32 clubs.   

 

The only real argument  is if the price was right.  The Pats thought the right price was  5 years, 65 mil, 40 mil guaranteed.  

 

I can see both sides of the argument but - to me - that's too high for Gilmore.  I understand why Whaley didn't counter with a higher offer.

 

http://www.spotrac.c...n-gilmore-9820/



#40 mjt328

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 03:22 PM

Every single team loses players in Free Agency.  It is impossible to retain everyone.

 

The difference between good GMs and bad GMs is the ability to:

1.  Know which guys to keep and which guys to let go

2.  Replace the guys who walk with cheaper draft selections and bargain veterans

 

In my opinion, Doug Whaley has done a good job at knowing which players to let walk (Jairus Byrd, Nigel Bradham) and which ones to bring back (Cordy Glenn, Ritchie Incognito, Jerry Hughes, Marcel Dareus).  He has also done a good job at finding good veteran bargains in Free Agency (Tyrod Taylor, Lorenzo Alexander, Zach Brown).

 

Whaley's biggest problem has been re-filling the pipeline with draft selections.  He's not getting enough production out of important picks like Cyrus Kouandijo, Preston Brown or anyone from the 2016 class.  If this team starts drafting better, this team will turn around.  That is the key.