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This is not a rebuild, folks...


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#441 #BADOL

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 04:05 PM

 

This offseason, Pegula has fired Rex, replaced him with an extremely bright young coach in McDermott, fired Whaley, replaced him with a major upgrade and each hire has been highly acclaimed.

 

I'd say that's pretty damn flattering.

 

Firing Rex was hardly a bold move........it was unanimous that he had to go and that he was an awful hire who made Pegula look like a complete idiot by agreeing to hire the largest staff in the league and THEN take on Rob Ryan after it was already clear that Rex himself was lax in his duties.   Who hires a slacking employees brother to help him slack more?   

 

And what has "bright young" McDermott accomplished in a decade of coordinating defenses?  

 

Like I said.......once fired, once lost a Super Bowl.   Not sure how the distinguishes him from Greggo other than Greggo hadn't been fired.

 

If you feel the need to fluff the situation that's fine........but it is as I say..........owner acted like a douche.......then hired and gave a great deal of authority to a nobody coach who hired some cronies to help him do battle in division with the greatest coach of all-time......slow clap.......very impressive Terry P. :rolleyes:



#442 OldTimeAFLGuy

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 04:10 PM

 

Firing Rex was hardly a bold move........it was unanimous that he had to go and that he was an awful hire who made Pegula look like a complete idiot by agreeing to hire the largest staff in the league and THEN take on Rob Ryan after it was already clear that Rex himself was lax in his duties.   Who hires a slacking employees brother to help him slack more?   

 

And what has "bright young" McDermott accomplished in a decade of coordinating defenses?  

 

Like I said.......once fired, once lost a Super Bowl.   Not sure how the distinguishes him from Greggo other than Greggo hadn't been fired.

 

If you feel the need to fluff the situation that's fine........but it is as I say..........owner acted like a douche.......then hired and gave a great deal of authority to a nobody coach who hired some cronies to help him do battle in division with the greatest coach of all-time......slow clap.......very impressive Terry P. :rolleyes:

 

.....sure you didn't leave anything out?.......



#443 vorpma

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 04:40 PM

There is a new football regime in place that is headed by the new HC, an organizational structure that bothers me a lot. At this point it is futile to lament how the organization is structured because it is already in place. It seems to me that all the upper echelon front office hires and the HC are in sync. Until more time goes by we will not know whether the theory will match the application. 

 

I have said on many postings that there is no quick fix to reworking the roster and being a contending team. Because of the lackluster qb situation it's going to take at least another few years to be anything other than a fringe wild-card contending team. (My opinion.)

 

What I want to see is an organization that functions in a unified manner and makes sound decisions. By the nature of the business not every transaction is going to work out. However, over time doing things the right way will have a cumulative effect and get this train back on track. 

 

Where I disagree with your perspective, although understandable, is that you are focusing too much on the dysfunctional past and applying it to the present and future. I'm taking a different approach. I'm looking at what has recently happened and seeing it in a more positive light. With a recognition that there is still a lot more to do I'm comfortable in saying that I am cautiously optimistic. 

Great post! 



#444 GunnerBill

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 02:07 AM

I have more faith in McDermott than Badol... I have said many times I think had the Panthers not made the Superbowl last year he'd have been a Head Coach last year. I like his resume and I like his approach.

But you can't look at the Pegulas process to get to this point and tell me it was classic management. The McDermott hire may end up being the moment the tide turned for them in Buffalo but if it doesn't work out there are legitimate questions (again) about their process which in 3 or 4 or 5 years people will be entitled to ask.

#445 Thurman#1

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:15 AM

No one is arguing that being a self-made billionaire is automatically going to make you a good owner. In fact, I have argued otherwise in that your success in a prior endeavor doesn't necessarily translate into success in your new endeavor as an owner. It should not be surprising that there is a learning curve. That's why I'm giving the Pegulas some slack. 

 

There is no question that the Pegulas have made some major missteps. The Rex hire was outright weird. And there is no question that there has been a major mismatch between the front office and the hired coaching staffs because he made the hires without the required input of the GM. 

 

But making mistakes in the past doesn't mean that everything you currently are doing is wrong. I believe the inarticulate owner has learned from his mistakes. I see a greater alignment between the coaching staff and the front office. I also see him putting more attention on buttressing the front office with his recent hires. 

 

Dan Snyder has reflexively drawn a lot of criticism. Due to his past involvement in the operation that criticism was very warranted. But now he is not as involved in the details of the football operation as he used to be. And clearly the team has been more successful on the field because of it. 

 

 

 

Yeah, the Skins appear to have been more successful on the field. And Snyder and his brain trust just fired the guy who appears to have been responsible for that success. Nah, Snyder appears to be as off-target as ever.

 

But I agree with everything else you said here. Having made mistakes in the past doesn't mean what you're doing now is wrong.


 

This offseason, Pegula has fired Rex, replaced him with an extremely bright young coach in McDermott, fired Whaley, replaced him with a major upgrade and each hire has been highly acclaimed.

 

I'd say that's pretty damn flattering.

 

 

Disagree.

 

Those guys he fired, Rex was a Pegula hire and Whaley was three months ago the guy who'd be in control.

 

And you can argue those guys they hired are upgrades, but that's pure guesswork right now.

 

It's not flattering. Highly acclaimed doesn't mean squat. Winning, that's what means something. Every regime start, coach or GM, has inspired mostly hope among fans. That's because they're fans. This is yet another beginning in the Pegula era, the third in many ways, right? 

 

They don't get the benefit of the doubt anymore, IMHO. It's pure "show me the money" for me. I'll wait. But I'm not confident. They haven't showed an ability to choose the right guys up till now. They should've hired a czar way back when they took over the team. I understand why they maybe don't want one now, but they should've hired one back at the beginning.


Edited by Thurman#1, 19 May 2017 - 05:16 AM.


#446 ScottLaw

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 06:58 AM

I have more faith in McDermott than Badol... I have said many times I think had the Panthers not made the Superbowl last year he'd have been a Head Coach last year. I like his resume and I like his approach.

But you can't look at the Pegulas process to get to this point and tell me it was classic management. The McDermott hire may end up being the moment the tide turned for them in Buffalo but if it doesn't work out there are legitimate questions (again) about their process which in 3 or 4 or 5 years people will be entitled to ask.

I don't think BADOLs showing lack of faith in McDermott.... It's just the usual Bills fan/OBD post reaction in a move made.... Give that person WAY too much credit for doing absolutely nothing yet.

He's not wrong that McDermott has been a pretty average coach to this point in his career and Pegula gave this career average coach A LOT of authority. Bold move that can make Terry look real smart or real dumb(again).

Edited by ScottLaw, 19 May 2017 - 07:00 AM.


#447 JM2009

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:00 AM

 

 

 

Yeah, the Skins appear to have been more successful on the field. And Snyder and his brain trust just fired the guy who appears to have been responsible for that success. Nah, Snyder appears to be as off-target as ever.

 

But I agree with everything else you said here. Having made mistakes in the past doesn't mean what you're doing now is wrong.


 

 

Disagree.

 

Those guys he fired, Rex was a Pegula hire and Whaley was three months ago the guy who'd be in control.

 

And you can argue those guys they hired are upgrades, but that's pure guesswork right now.

 

It's not flattering. Highly acclaimed doesn't mean squat. Winning, that's what means something. Every regime start, coach or GM, has inspired mostly hope among fans. That's because they're fans. This is yet another beginning in the Pegula era, the third in many ways, right? 

 

They don't get the benefit of the doubt anymore, IMHO. It's pure "show me the money" for me. I'll wait. But I'm not confident. They haven't showed an ability to choose the right guys up till now. They should've hired a czar way back when they took over the team. I understand why they maybe don't want one now, but they should've hired one back at the beginning.

These hires are getting praised around the NFL. I'm sure Pegula is paying them well. Looks better than any FO this past century.



#448 ScottLaw

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:05 AM

 
 
 
Yeah, the Skins appear to have been more successful on the field. And Snyder and his brain trust just fired the guy who appears to have been responsible for that success. Nah, Snyder appears to be as off-target as ever.
 
But I agree with everything else you said here. Having made mistakes in the past doesn't mean what you're doing now is wrong.

 
 
Disagree.
 
Those guys he fired, Rex was a Pegula hire and Whaley was three months ago the guy who'd be in control.
 
And you can argue those guys they hired are upgrades, but that's pure guesswork right now.
 
It's not flattering. Highly acclaimed doesn't mean squat. Winning, that's what means something. Every regime start, coach or GM, has inspired mostly hope among fans. That's because they're fans. This is yet another beginning in the Pegula era, the third in many ways, right? 
 
They don't get the benefit of the doubt anymore, IMHO. It's pure "show me the money" for me. I'll wait. But I'm not confident. They haven't showed an ability to choose the right guys up till now. They should've hired a czar way back when they took over the team. I understand why they maybe don't want one now, but they should've hired one back at the beginning.


An established guy who's had experience building winners would've been ideal.... Someone like Tom Coughlin is what I was hoping for...

These hires are getting praised around the NFL. I'm sure Pegula is paying them well. Looks better than any FO this past century.


This means absolutely nothing.

The hire of GW, Mularkey, and Jauron got its fair share of praise as well.

Wait and see. If they aren't winning by year two they'll be no different then the guys before them.

#449 Thurman#1

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:31 AM

These hires are getting praised around the NFL. I'm sure Pegula is paying them well. Looks better than any FO this past century.

 

 

Getting praised around the NFL means little or nothing. It really doesn't.

 

Everybody who gets this kind of opportunity is good at their current level. Very good. If they weren't, they wouldn't even be on the lists. Everybody's really good at their current level. So you get lots of compliments and cheers on nearly every hire.  

 

But plenty have major problems on the next level.

 

And what does pay have to do with it? Nothing. 

 

It looks better ... if that's the way you want to look at it. If you remember, when Whaley was brought in there were huge plaudits thrown towards the Bills for getting one of the rising young football minds in the league.


An established guy who's had experience building winners would've been ideal.... Someone like Tom Coughlin is what I was hoping for...

 

 

Me too. That's the only way to get more surety.

 

I'm not against these guys at all. But they get no benefit of the doubt. Nobody knows how they'll do.



#450 JohnC

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:38 AM

I have more faith in McDermott than Badol... I have said many times I think had the Panthers not made the Superbowl last year he'd have been a Head Coach last year. I like his resume and I like his approach.

But you can't look at the Pegulas process to get to this point and tell me it was classic management. The McDermott hire may end up being the moment the tide turned for them in Buffalo but if it doesn't work out there are legitimate questions (again) about their process which in 3 or 4 or 5 years people will be entitled to ask.

I do share some of the concerns that Badman has. No question that they are  valid. What has me queasy is not the hiring of McDermott who has been mentioned for other job openings. What bothers me  more  was the immediate transferring of full authority to him. As soon as he was hired he was essentially acting as the GM. No one can doubt that he was managing the draft. There is little doubt that he was very influential in the hiring of the front office staff. (I need to add that individually and more importantly collectively I like the hires.) 

 

Does the wrestling coach have too much of the Greg Williams tough guy approach and an egotistical belief where the force of his muscular personality is going to overcome a lack of talent? I have a little concern of that irritating affliction. But what mitigates those fears is that I see the HC being very thoughtful about how he wants  to build a roster and an organization. There is a lot of thought put into the concept of his team compared to acting on a shallower level of making individual and unrelated transactions. One of the main reasons for Whaley's failure or middling performance has to do with his "fill the hole" mentality as opposed to having a coherent philosophy in managing a football operation. 



#451 ScottLaw

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:47 AM

I do share some of the concerns that Badman has. No question that they are  valid. What has me queasy is not the hiring of McDermott who has been mentioned for other job openings. What bothers me  more  was the immediate transferring of full authority to him. As soon as he was hired he was essentially acting as the GM. No one can doubt that he was managing the draft. There is little doubt that he was very influential in the hiring of the front office staff. (I need to add that individually and more importantly collectively I like the hires.) 
 
Does the wrestling coach have too much of the Greg Williams tough guy approach and an egotistical belief where the force of his muscular personality is going to overcome a lack of talent? I have a little concern of that irritating affliction. But what mitigates those fears is that I see the HC being very thoughtful about how he wants  to build a roster and an organization. There is a lot of thought put into the concept of his team compared to acting on a shallower level of making individual and unrelated transactions. One of the main reasons for Whaley's failure or middling performance has to do with his "fill the hole" mentality as opposed to having a coherent philosophy in managing a football operation. 


Sure... But that "fill the hole" philosophy that contributed to Whaleys failure is exactly what McDermott just did in the draft with his first few picks....

#452 jmcraig44

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 08:06 AM

 

Firing Rex was hardly a bold move........it was unanimous that he had to go and that he was an awful hire who made Pegula look like a complete idiot by agreeing to hire the largest staff in the league and THEN take on Rob Ryan after it was already clear that Rex himself was lax in his duties.   Who hires a slacking employees brother to help him slack more?   

 

And what has "bright young" McDermott accomplished in a decade of coordinating defenses?  

 

Like I said.......once fired, once lost a Super Bowl.   Not sure how the distinguishes him from Greggo other than Greggo hadn't been fired.

 

If you feel the need to fluff the situation that's fine........but it is as I say..........owner acted like a douche.......then hired and gave a great deal of authority to a nobody coach who hired some cronies to help him do battle in division with the greatest coach of all-time......slow clap.......very impressive Terry P. :rolleyes:

yikes.  relax dude.  Vince Lombardi would have trouble with the GOATs in N.E.  Bills will compete and win a bunch of games this year.  



#453 JohnC

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 08:15 AM

Sure... But that "fill the hole" philosophy that contributed to Whaleys failure is exactly what McDermott just did in the draft with his first few picks....

You are making a generalization off of one draft. Isn't that judgment not only a bit premature but also presumptuous? Other than my preference for selecting a qb in the first round I can fairly say that the first three picks were more than reasonable picks. If the same three picks fill holes, then so what? What is the complaint? In this draft there was a trade down to acquire more picks. That in itself was a change. I'm also aware that there was also a trade up but if if was for a player they liked a lot I can't condemn them for acting on a strong conviction.. 

 

Is anyone going to disagree with our football operation has been completely overhauled? Is anyone going to disagree that there is a greater coherency between the front office and coaching staff? I'm not jumping to the conclusion that this organization is now in a state of nirvana. But from what I do see is an organization that is more coherent and in sync. Only time will tell whether those changes will be reflected by better play on the field. In general, I'm more encouraged than not. 



#454 Shaw66

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 08:26 AM

 

Firing Rex was hardly a bold move........it was unanimous that he had to go and that he was an awful hire who made Pegula look like a complete idiot by agreeing to hire the largest staff in the league and THEN take on Rob Ryan after it was already clear that Rex himself was lax in his duties.   Who hires a slacking employees brother to help him slack more?   

 

And what has "bright young" McDermott accomplished in a decade of coordinating defenses?  

 

Like I said.......once fired, once lost a Super Bowl.   Not sure how the distinguishes him from Greggo other than Greggo hadn't been fired.

 

If you feel the need to fluff the situation that's fine........but it is as I say..........owner acted like a douche.......then hired and gave a great deal of authority to a nobody coach who hired some cronies to help him do battle in division with the greatest coach of all-time......slow clap.......very impressive Terry P. :rolleyes:

All you can do is evaluate the Pegulas on what they did with the opportunities that they were presented with.   You talk like the Pegulas have been failures in 2017 because they haven't won a Super Bowl.   Well, winning a Super Bowl, winning the division, making the playoffs all are things they couldn't do anything about in the first five months of 2017.   

 

What they were presented with was a dysfunctional coach and they fired him.   What more could they do?   Check that box. 

 

They had a field of head coach candidates to look at.   They hired, from the perspective of the spring of 2017, the best candidate.  He didn't go someplace else, like Chip Kelly a few years ago.   There was, on paper, no better candidate.  Will he succeed?   We don't know.  It isn't knowable at this time.   So what more could the Pegula's do?   Check that box. 

 

They had a decision to make about Whaley.  For a variety of reasons that aren't really known to us, they fired him.  Most people thought that was the right thing to.  At least from the perspective of what Whaley had accomplished in his tenure, it wasn't obviously a bad move to fire him.   Check that box. 

 

They hired one of the top candidates to be a GM, acknowledged around the league as a guy who would be a GM someday.   He has experience.  He has a working relationship with McDermott, which is a plus and a change, apparently, from life under Whaley and the previous head coaches.   Check THAT box.  

 

They hired guys to work for Beane, ALL of whom are highly respected around the league and are potential GM candidates.  One of them spent several years working for the Patriots, which is a plus.   Based on the field they had to choose from, they couldn't have gotten more qualified people.   Check THAT box.  

 

What is that you think the Pegulas could have done in the last four months that would have made their performance as owners better than what they did?



#455 NeckBeard

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 08:28 AM

Sure... But that "fill the hole" philosophy that contributed to Whaleys failure is exactly what McDermott just did in the draft with his first few picks....

 

We shall see.  This org structure is something new for a change, and I embrace it.  Maybe it will work.  Maybe it won't.  Plus, one has to assume that every system is going to require specific new talent via the draft.  We have no idea if these picks were to augment existing talent, and to fill holes for what will end up on the field, or if it's yet another lost draft.  The draft made sense to me in and of itself, but you can't create a benchmark for success until they start playing real games, right?

 

After the failed HC Greggg and Donahoe experiment, this orig made "meh" decisions for years, and then it totally shot itself in the foot when it hired Rex, and probably also when it retained DW for that long (and I actually was more in the pro DW lot than not), you had to wonder what the master plan for this organization and team would be.  The next 2 to 3 years are going to be very interesting.  I am sure of that, win or lose.


Edited by NeckBeard, 19 May 2017 - 08:29 AM.


#456 jmc12290

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 08:40 AM

All you can do is evaluate the Pegulas on what they did with the opportunities that they were presented with.   You talk like the Pegulas have been failures in 2017 because they haven't won a Super Bowl.   Well, winning a Super Bowl, winning the division, making the playoffs all are things they couldn't do anything about in the first five months of 2017.   

 

What they were presented with was a dysfunctional coach and they fired him.   What more could they do?   Check that box. 

 

They had a field of head coach candidates to look at.   They hired, from the perspective of the spring of 2017, the best candidate.  He didn't go someplace else, like Chip Kelly a few years ago.   There was, on paper, no better candidate.  Will he succeed?   We don't know.  It isn't knowable at this time.   So what more could the Pegula's do?   Check that box. 

 

They had a decision to make about Whaley.  For a variety of reasons that aren't really known to us, they fired him.  Most people thought that was the right thing to.  At least from the perspective of what Whaley had accomplished in his tenure, it wasn't obviously a bad move to fire him.   Check that box. 

 

They hired one of the top candidates to be a GM, acknowledged around the league as a guy who would be a GM someday.   He has experience.  He has a working relationship with McDermott, which is a plus and a change, apparently, from life under Whaley and the previous head coaches.   Check THAT box.  

 

They hired guys to work for Beane, ALL of whom are highly respected around the league and are potential GM candidates.  One of them spent several years working for the Patriots, which is a plus.   Based on the field they had to choose from, they couldn't have gotten more qualified people.   Check THAT box.  

 

What is that you think the Pegulas could have done in the last four months that would have made their performance as owners better than what they did?

Are you arguing the Pegulas didn't hire that dysfunctional coach and orchestrate their own fate?

 

Maybe they rectified it.  Maybe they didn't.  But you know what the best thing to do about mistakes is?  Don't make them.



#457 NeckBeard

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 09:03 AM

Are you arguing the Pegulas didn't hire that dysfunctional coach and orchestrate their own fate?

 

Maybe they rectified it.  Maybe they didn't.  But you know what the best thing to do about mistakes is?  Don't make them.

 

So by your scale, nobody ever makes mistakes?  Think of a time when you'd thought something was a great idea, until it turned out to be the exact opposite.  No matter how much I'd hated the idea of Rex coaching the Bills, I suspect that was the case.  If you go to a doctor who's rooster sure about curing your cancer, you buy into that message, because you want to believe that you will be cured; but if it doesn't work out, you have to take a step back.



#458 Thurman#1

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 09:40 AM

t

It happens all the time?   I don't know what you're talking about.

 

Can you cite some examples of guys who rewrote their existing contracts to take less money.    I can't think of any, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

 

"Rewrote." You mean like Tyrod came to the Bills and said, "Listen, I know you're thrilled to pay the $30.5 mill guarantee if I'm on the roster in March 2017 and the $40 mill guarantee if I'm on the roster in March 2018, I know you guys are champing at the bit to pay that, but I've re-written my contract as I just feel you'd be paying me too much." Like that? 

 

He didn't re-write his contract, he re-negotiated with the Bills.

 

The Bills went to him, nobody says differently. And a ton of people re-negotiate their salary down in that kind of situation, especially if there isn't an obvious better option.

 

Who took a pay cut? Off the top of my head, Kyle Williams. This year. He agreed to take money that was already on his contract and turn it into incentives for snaps. He didn’t do that because it was his most ardent desire. He did it because the Bills wanted it and likely insisted.

 

https://www.profootb...s-takes-pay-cut

 

As I just cruise through google, I find Shane Vereen taking a pay cut and getting incentives instead. Brent Celek. Brian Robison, Justin Bethel.

 

Lessee, Peyton Manning took a pay cut in 2015, was reported to be “irked” but accepted it, apparently negotiating for some or all of that to be able to be made up in incentives.

 

Amendola’s accepting a cut from around $6 mill in 2017 to around $1.6 mill. And that’s after the huge pay cut he took last year.

 

Connor Barwin said he’d be willing to take a pay cut to stay in Philly. Ended up being cut instead, apparently because he and the Eagles disagreed on how large the cut should be.

 

I could go on.

 

 

There are free agents whose teams tell them to take what's offered or move on to some team that will pay him more, but that's different.  

 

Who does that? 

 

That's not different. That's what happened. Now, Tyrod's guys may have negotiated for a few things in exchange for taking that big pay cut and the big cut in guarantee, and the way the Bills now have an extremely easy way to cut him after the 2017 season where it would have been massively difficult to do so in the original deal. 

 

That happens all the time that the team gives a little something back, incentives or whatever. May well have happened here. And Tyrod's side may have asked for a shorter term. Most likely the Bills would rather have kept him on the hook for the later non-guaranteed part of the contract to maintain control and more flexibility, but giving the later years of the contract up probably wasn't a major problem for the Bills at all.

 

 

A much more plausible explanation is that you sign the best guy available to you and keep looking.   That's what you do at EVERY position, and AB is no different.  The Bills are in no hurry to turn the team over to Peterman.   You play the best player you have until you find a better one, doing that always with the knowledge that the best player you have may improve or drop off.   What you don't do is decide today that the guy who is your starter next year has to go.   That's not how you think about any personnel decision, unless you have a criminal or total non-performer who HAS to go.  

 

 

Sure, sign the guy - if he agrees to reasonable payment terms - and keep looking. Agreed.

 

A bridge QB, in other words. 

 

And sure, with every bridge QB, you hope he improves, even if you know it's very unlikely. Hell, you hope every guy on your team becomes All-Pro but you don't expect it.

 

But no, you certainly do decide your starter this year has to go if he won't accept reasonable compensation. Most likely it happened in SF with Kaepernick. He's probably the best QB they've had on that team since Alex Smith, but his contract was insane for the performance he gives. Adrian Peterson would be the best RB on the Vikings this year but he's not there because of the money. Mangold's the best center the Jets have but he wasn't worth $9 mill so he's gone. The Bills clearly thought Jairus Byrd was their best option at safety, as they offered him around $8 mill per year to stay. But they didn't think he was worth what he wanted so even though he was the best guy they had he was gone.

 

Like guys taking pay cuts when their other option is being cut, this happens all the time, that teams cut guys who are their starter when they aren't worth the money they're going to get. Unless that guy accepts a salary cut, of course.


Edited by Thurman#1, 19 May 2017 - 10:15 AM.


#459 reddogblitz

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 04:39 PM

These hires are getting praised around the NFL. I'm sure Pegula is paying them well. Looks better than any FO this past century.


It's called marketing.

I hope these guys are great. We'll know if they are when the wins start rolling in. If they don't, then these boys aren't so good after all.

#460 jumbalaya

jumbalaya

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 05:36 PM

This roster is overrated. The defense of 2014 is dead and buried. It ain't coming back with McDermott in 2017.

Overrated?  This roster sucks how can it be overrated?