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Enough complaining that Watkins was drafted 4th....


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#61 Captain Murica

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 08:17 PM

sammyw.png



#62 Cherrybone

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 08:52 PM

This required another thread?


Another thread counter. This board is really a huge part of a lot of your lives.

#63 Thurman#1

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 09:27 PM

and explaining the trade to non-football draft-obsessed fans.

 

Yes still pissed and explain to people why Watkins was traded so the new regime can roll the dice on another draft pick and the lunacy.

 

Yes reading threads and people just refuse to get over the fact Watkins was drafted 4th and that it is somehow his fault.

 

When healthy and targeted Watkins definitely lived up to the #4 pick (and yes OBJ I'm convinced would be called a bust in Buffalo with the Bills Offensive playbook).

 

So friends (non Bills or obsessed fans) ask why he was traded and I say the following.

 

The "Brain trust" (yes sarcasm) refused to extend him for a 5th year based on his injuries and didn't want to keep him since there is no doubt if healthy he is a star and thus the Bills wouldn't pay him.

 

So the Bills aren't tanking and definitely got worse for 2017 from the trade(s) and as fans we can blissfully hope to hit the jackpot in the draft next year.

 

The idiocy to me defies logic.

 

 

 

Come on ... people blame Sammy? Only the nuts and wackos.

 

As for the rest of your post, though, it comes down to "I don't like hearing about this." And you'll just have to deal with it, same as the rest of the world has to deal with stuff they don't like. It's just life.

 

It really was a bad trade from the first minute it happened. 

 

And there's extreme doubt about your statement about OBJ being a failure here. Very doubtful. Sammy's big problem is that he wasn't healthy. Beckham has been consistently healthy and available. Yeah, we'd have thrown to him less than the Giants did. But if you look at the stats, guys like Woods had better catch ratios than Sammy, whereas Beckham was destroying the other WRs on the Giants in that stat. If Beckham were here he'd almost certainly still be a tremendous success. Yeah, he'd have smaller gross stats, but he'd still be doing what he's done for the Giants in terms of qualititative stats. He'd still be thought of as a tremendous success. And we wouldn't have had to trade away three picks to get the pick to get him, we'd only have had to use the one.

 

It wasn't a good move, that trade.

 

As for tanking, it basically doesn't exist in football. Rebuilding does. And while we're not doing a full rebuild, there's a large element of rebuilding in McDermott and Beane's plan.


First of all for the purpose of trade evaluations in the NFL a future 1st round pick is considered as a 2nd round pick in value...

 

 

 

Yup, and the good teams - the teams that have consistency in management - love that future firsts are undervalued that way. They take advantage of that whenever they can to get first round picks in future years.


Edited by Thurman#1, 22 August 2017 - 09:44 PM.


#64 Thurman#1

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 09:44 PM

And let's look at those draft picks Cleveland got.....  They used #8 on Justin Gilbert, who was eventually traded for a 6th and released after 2016 by Pittsburgh.  BTW they chose Johnny football @ 22.

 

Then that great Buffalo pick in 2015 is Cameron Erving who I can't find anything on ESPN or Wikipedia......

 

Proves my point that the draft is a crapshoot.

 

So yea Cleveland fleeced us.......

 

 

 

Yes, they did.

 

That draft pick wasn't Justin Gilbert. It was the right to pick a player at #9 that the Bills traded away. The fact that Cleveland blew that pick doesn't mean we would have. We might easily have used that pick to snag Shazier or Aaron Donald. Or Ebron. Or Beckham. Or Zack Martin.

 

So yeah, Cleveland made the smart trade and we made the dumb one. They then used the draft pick poorly. But if someone steals your money and then gambles it away in Vegas, it doesn't make it OK that they stole your money in the first place.


Edited by Thurman#1, 22 August 2017 - 09:45 PM.


#65 Bill_with_it

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 09:46 PM

sammyw.png

You won the offseason.

#66 Thurman#1

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 10:10 PM

 

Except, you conveniently factor in the hurt games where Sammy "played' but wasn't healthy.  If you look at when sammy was healthy, its a different picture.  

 

Sammy rookie year he caught passes from Orton and EJ...BIG advantage OBJ in that department.

Sammy 2nd year, he wasn't healthy due to a big rib shot and didn't get healthy until after the bye week.  And over those last 9 games healthy he outperformed OBJ with TT on a run first offense while OBJ played with a 2 time SB winning QB that passed constantly. 

Sammy 3rd year, might as well as missed 14 games because he wasn't healthy really until week 15 and even then he played through pain.  

 

So when both have been healthy, Sammy has done better, been more consistent, and did it on a running team with a guy you say sucks at QB.  

 

But then again, if people looked at context and the reality of the scenario this wouldn't be TSW.  

 

 

 

So ... what you're saying is that if he'd been healthy, things might have been different, right?

 

Thing is ... he WASN'T healthy. He's shown no ability to stay on the field or to consistently be at the top of his game when on the field. Yeah, if you ignore that  things look better. But it shouldn't be ignored. It's a huge part of the picture with Sammy.


Edited by Thurman#1, 22 August 2017 - 10:11 PM.


#67 Not at the table Karlos

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 10:30 PM

No he hasn't lived up to his draft slot. No OB would not be worse in Buffalo, the guy just excels.  The only Idiocy is the bills fans repeatedly over hyping and over valuing players just because they were Buffalo Bills.
 
And why are we still starting  threads over a LA Ram? 

so OBJ would still be getting over 10 targets a game on a team that attempted 20 passes a game... ok.

#68 Billsfan1972

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 05:11 AM

OK let's dispell this myth about Sammy and Tyrod's second half of the season. Remember the KC Game? Sammy had 140+yds in the first half. The second half didn't even get one look. The Houston game Sammy had 2 catches for over 100yds. The only game that Tyrod really hooked up with Sammy on a consistent basis is the last game against the Jets. Other then that their chemistry was over stated by the yds Sammy was getting off of a few catches. And that's why his average was so high. But let's highlight the fact that it took 8 games for Tyrod to realize he had a great receiver at his disposal. Don't let that so called second half of the season fool you. The hype was basically off of Sammy ability. Tyrod still didn't target him like he was a #1 receiver. Sammy just made the best of the opportunities he did get, which was very few for a guy with his talent. Including that second half. Look it up I dare you

I blamed it on the OC and the inability to call plays at the line or be allowed to change them.  You watch and TT seldom looked at the defensive scheme (as opposed to Manning and other QB's).  

 

The old chicken or egg and just wonder if it would have continued.  Watkins was targetted 3 less times then other elite receivers and that in a full season is probably 30 catches.....  Math is pretty simple.


 

 

 

Yes, they did.

 

That draft pick wasn't Justin Gilbert. It was the right to pick a player at #9 that the Bills traded away. The fact that Cleveland blew that pick doesn't mean we would have. We might easily have used that pick to snag Shazier or Aaron Donald. Or Ebron. Or Beckham. Or Zack Martin.

 

So yeah, Cleveland made the smart trade and we made the dumb one. They then used the draft pick poorly. But if someone steals your money and then gambles it away in Vegas, it doesn't make it OK that they stole your money in the first place.

I used Cleveland because that was the trade and those were their picks.  I shows that picks in football are exactly like going to vegas and betting.....  A crap shoot.



#69 Riverboat Richie

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 07:34 AM

League leaders in WR categories tend to play with good NFL QBs ( there are always exceptions). And on offenses that actually throw the ball once in awhile, while targeting their best WR often. He showed what he could do when they actually threw his way. He had some injury issues. It's not like the guy was always thrown to , never missed any time, and still failed to produce. It's hard to say a guy that took so much flack from fans was overrated. His time here was mostly waiting for what could have been,for various reasons. That's about it.


So how does losing a guy that you won't throw to and had "some injury issues"' make the team worse? Any way you spin it they didn't get the production from him. Oh, he's not 100%, oh he has Taylor throwing, or not throwing, to him. Coaches are using him wrong. He may has well have never been on the team at all. The team sucks as much with him as it ever did without him. How was that going to change based solely on Watkins being there for another year?

#70 Billsfan1972

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 09:16 AM

So how does losing a guy that you won't throw to and had "some injury issues"' make the team worse? Any way you spin it they didn't get the production from him. Oh, he's not 100%, oh he has Taylor throwing, or not throwing, to him. Coaches are using him wrong. He may has well have never been on the team at all. The team sucks as much with him as it ever did without him. How was that going to change based solely on Watkins being there for another year?

Because I expect a competent coaching staff to properly use their best offensive player.....  



#71 TheElectricCompany

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 10:03 AM

And you base that off of what?

Production, highlights, reputation, eye test, etc. etc. 



#72 Billsfan1972

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 11:31 AM

OK let's dispell this myth about Sammy and Tyrod's second half of the season. Remember the KC Game? Sammy had 140+yds in the first half. The second half didn't even get one look. The Houston game Sammy had 2 catches for over 100yds. The only game that Tyrod really hooked up with Sammy on a consistent basis is the last game against the Jets. Other then that their chemistry was over stated by the yds Sammy was getting off of a few catches. And that's why his average was so high. But let's highlight the fact that it took 8 games for Tyrod to realize he had a great receiver at his disposal. Don't let that so called second half of the season fool you. The hype was basically off of Sammy ability. Tyrod still didn't target him like he was a #1 receiver. Sammy just made the best of the opportunities he did get, which was very few for a guy with his talent. Including that second half. Look it up I dare you

So what side are you on?  I am confused.  

 

Those games I remember vividly and continually point to them as why Sammy is so valuable and a great player.  The first half they targeted him and he made every play and then they forgot about him the second half and the Bills lost.  The Houston game they threw him maybe a third time and otherwise didn't look his way.  The New York game he torched Revis and was a joy to watch.

 

I blamed the OC and had hope that this staff wasn't so STOOPID.



#73 What a Tuel

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 12:53 PM

Where would you rank sammy as a wide receiver league wide - right now?  Not based on potential.

 

Top 15 if not top 10. Matthews by comparison I would probably put in 30-40 range.



#74 What a Tuel

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 01:11 PM

So ... what you're saying is that if he'd been healthy, things might have been different, right?

 

Thing is ... he WASN'T healthy. He's shown no ability to stay on the field or to consistently be at the top of his game when on the field. Yeah, if you ignore that  things look better. But it shouldn't be ignored. It's a huge part of the picture with Sammy.

 

Yes, health is a factor that should be considered but the lot of you utilize it as Watkins being defective when in reality, he needs to heal up and that's it.

 

Beckham has been injured quite frequently as well. He had the luck of having it in at the right times and minor enough to still play.

 

http://sportsinjuryp...beckham-jr/6942

 

http://sportsinjuryp...my-watkins/6937


Edited by What a Tuel, 23 August 2017 - 01:12 PM.


#75 Cherrybone

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 01:50 PM

So what side are you on?  I am confused.  
 
Those games I remember vividly and continually point to them as why Sammy is so valuable and a great player.  The first half they targeted him and he made every play and then they forgot about him the second half and the Bills lost.  The Houston game they threw him maybe a third time and otherwise didn't look his way.  The New York game he torched Revis and was a joy to watch.
 
I blamed the OC and had hope that this staff wasn't so STOOPID.



I'm on the side that says Tyrod don't or didn't look for Sammy enough for him to be his #1 target and that overstated second half of the season is a fluke.

#76 Billsfan1972

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 02:00 PM

I'm on the side that says Tyrod don't or didn't look for Sammy enough for him to be his #1 target and that overstated second half of the season is a fluke.

And I blame his coaching and the OC.  Can't be hard to say or create situations to target your #1 10X's/gm.



#77 Billy Zabka

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 02:29 PM

1st, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th, and 4th Round picks

 

Result: EJ Gaines, Reggie Ragland, 2nd Rounder.

 

Yikes...